Can you CHOOSE to turn your spell into a full-round action?

kreynolds said:


I'm not seeing the relevance, except for when you are slowed or hasted and want to cast a full-round spell or perform a full-round action, but that's not under contention here. Am I missing something?

I think the point is that using a partial action to start casting a full round spell requires the use of another cast spell action the following round to finish it. Therefore, in the following round you could use your partial action from haste to finish casting the full round spell, leaving you with a full round to do with what you will(which could include casting a second spell) and with a Quickened spell even a third. The fourth spell, however, is right out.
 

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k reynolds -
you could even make the spell being cast a full round action - using that rule... and get "four" spells away, taking the haste action at the "end" of your normal actions.

As far as deliberately taking a partial action as a full round action - sure. People do this all the time at low levels. Their "full attack" and "partial attack" actions are the same - one weapon, one blow, yet - they take the full attack action instead of a partial and move, or an attack and any other partial action.

STOP - and read the above again. Think. Then scroll down and read the rest of the post.











































The above provokes another - related question;

Why do I have to take a full round action when I could take a partial action to do the same thing?

Situation 1:

I'm a first level fighter - already in hand to hand combat. I am using only one weapon. Because there is no true difference between my full attack action and my partial attack action, I take a "standard action" and attack hand to hand. I have a partial action left - yes? I want to take the partial action - attack - again?

Sorry - you can't. why?

Situation 2:

I am a sorcerer, and I want to cast fireball, a spell with a casting time of one (implication partial) action. I cast this spell. I still have a partial action left, and the bad guys aren't fried. I want to cast fireball again.

Sorry - you can't. why?

I still have a "partial action" left over - right? What in the world prevents me from taking the attack actions as listed on pg 127 of the PHB?

"Usually you don't take a partial action because you elect to, but rather because you are required to."
PHB 127

Which implies that I CAN choose to take a partial action - even when I DON"T have to. This is just something I do not understand at all about older "been around since first and second editions" players and their way of thinking. Everybody seems to be thinking that there is an unwritten rule that reads as follows:

You can only take one action of the category "attack" - full or partial in a given round - unless you have haste up, in which case you can take two attacks, and one of them must be with the partial action awarded by the haste spell.

Quite frankly, I fail to see how you can't get four "1 action" spells (one quickened, and one from the haste) off in a single round as is.

----------------- Separate, but similar concept ------------------------

I also fail to see why you can't take a free action (including the casting of a spell) in conjunction with an action that is not your own. Initiative means that you can't START an action, it doesn't mean that you can't react to something.

Situation 3:
I see My buddy about to get whacked by an opponent from behind. I shout a warning "Joe (short for Joseph) behind you!!!) as a free action. This alerts Joe - who is now aware of the attack(and thus gets his dex bonus to AC) against the attack.

Sorry, you can't... why?

Situation 4:
I am aware of an enemy wizard - who is about to cast a time stop spell. I have a quickened fireball at hand, and want to stop him. I want to cast it at the enemy wizard.

Sorry, you can't... Why?

People just don't seem to think at all about the actual initiative system. The "timing" elements of the 1e and 2e systems seem to be superimposed on the 3e game - and I don't see why or how - other than the fact that people are creatures of habit.
 
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Magus_Jerel said:
The above provokes another - related question;

Why do I have to take a full round action when I could take a partial action to do the same thing?

Situation 1:

I'm a first level fighter - already in hand to hand combat. I am using only one weapon. Because there is no true difference between my full attack action and my partial attack action, I take a "standard action" and attack hand to hand. I have a partial action left - yes?

No.
I want to take the partial action - attack - again?

Sorry - you can't. why?


Move equivalent actions are NOT the same as Partial actions.

Situation 2:

I am a sorcerer, and I want to cast fireball, a spell with a casting time of one (implication partial) action. I cast this spell. I still have a partial action left, and the bad guys aren't fried. I want to cast fireball again.

Sorry - you can't. why?


Move equivalent actions are NOT the same as Partial actions.

I still have a "partial action" left over - right?

No.

What in the world prevents me from taking the attack actions as listed on pg 127 of the PHB?

The difference between Move Equivalent and Partial actions.

Quite frankly, I fail to see how you can't get four "1 action" spells (one quickened, and one from the haste) off in a single round as is.

Read the definitions of the types of actions again.

----------------- Separate, but similar concept ------------------------

I also fail to see why you can't take a free action (including the casting of a spell) in conjunction with an action that is not your own. Initiative means that you can't START an action, it doesn't mean that you can't react to something.

Situation 3:
I see My buddy about to get whacked by an opponent from behind. I shout a warning "Joe (short for Joseph) behind you!!!) as a free action. This alerts Joe - who is now aware of the attack(and thus gets his dex bonus to AC) against the attack.

Sorry, you can't... why?


Warning Joe doesn't make him instantly alert.

Situation 4:
I am aware of an enemy wizard - who is about to cast a time stop spell. I have a quickened fireball at hand, and want to stop him. I want to cast it at the enemy wizard.

Sorry, you can't... Why?


You can only take actions on your turn.

People just don't seem to think at all about the actual initiative system. The "timing" elements of the 1e and 2e systems seem to be superimposed on the 3e game - and I don't see why or how - other than the fact that people are creatures of habit.
You don't seem to understand the initiative/action system. Try understanding it before you start complaining about it.

Geoff.
 

Magus_Jerel: Your 4 situations fall into 2 categories. The first two fall into "I want to split my standard action into two partial actions!", and the second two fall into "I want to take actions when it isn't my turn!"

One of the most important things to realize about 3e combat rules is that a standard action is not two partial actions. Both your situation 1 and your situation 2 are not problems once this is realized. After you take the "attack" part of your standard action, you do not have a partial action left. What you do have left is a move or movee-equivalent action, which is not a partial action.

Your other situations both involve trying to take actions when it isn't your turn. This usually falls into a murky area where each DM has different rules. Some may allow taking free actions when it isn't your turn, some may not. IIRC, the official rule is that you can only take trivial actions (like yelling something) when it is not your turn. You can only take actions like casting a spell (even a Quickened spell) when it is your turn.
 
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One of the most important things to realize about 3e combat rules is that a standard action is not two partial actions. Both your situation 1 and your situation 2 are not problems once this is realized.

Apply logic. Perhaps it is better to explain what I am stating by forcing the logic behind it into a "systems of equations" format from old high school algebra so that people unfamiliar with pure logical forms will not be confused by technical jargon.

Standard A = MEA + Partial A - given definition standard action
Standard A = MEA + MEA - given definition Double Move

Therefore -
MEA + Partial A = MEA + MEA - by substitution
Partial A = MEA - by elimination
Standard A = Partial A + Partial A - by substitution

To state that "a standard action is not two partial actions" goes nowhere fast. How do you defeat the above logical and reasoned thought process? - you don't ... trust me you don't.

Goeff Watson -
Thx for proof of concept on point 1 and 2 ...

on point three - the word is aware of - not that joe is made alert... sorry - I presumed joe was awake and coherent.... sheesh.

on point 4 - please kindly try to define "take an action".

I can duck - right?
My shield can block my opponent's blow as I "move it" there?
I make saves?
I might be able to drop a weapon if it all of a sudden got really hot - right?

These are "actions taken" - from a passive sense.
evidently - you say "no" to the possiblilty of passive actions... and therefore indicate that combat is like chess... where everyone "takes their turn" and bops the other guy on the head.

graydoom - I understand your argument concerning three and four.

It would seem that to take a free action - you have to have the initiative, whereas the "not an action" category you can "do" or be made to do wether or not it is "your turn". However, logic similar to the point above also exists concerning free actions and not an action. It is however, not so easily "converted" into a systems of equations format - it requires the application of quantum principles.

As far as "taking actions when it isn't your turn" - there is a bit of debate on the difference between "free action" and "not an action". it would appear to sbe that you have to have initiative to use the former, but you could do the latter when you don't have the initiative. I have seen some WILD and completely irrational arguments on this one. However, the logic trap on "taking a free action when it is not your turn" is the following situation:

A nasty little kobold sets off a pit trap under a wizard in combat.
Said wizard has a feather fall spell memorized.
Can said wizard use said spell - a free action by definition even if it is not his action - and doesn't have the initiative? There are three possible answers:

1. If you answer no - you get shot down by the nature, purpose and intent of the spell.

2. If you answer yes - then you can cast a spell as a free action when "it isn't your turn" - but not initiate one. Ie - you could only do such a thing as a reaction to someone else's action.

3. If you say "you can only use feather fall this way" - you get shot for inconsistency.

Considering that the first and third can be argued aganst rationally, while the second (although complicated in defense) cannot be - I have to go with the second.
 

BlackBart said:
I think the point is that using a partial action to start casting a full round spell requires the use of another cast spell action the following round to finish it. Therefore, in the following round you could use your partial action from haste to finish casting the full round spell, leaving you with a full round to do with what you will(which could include casting a second spell) and with a Quickened spell even a third. The fourth spell, however, is right out.

That much is obvious. You don't need to tell me. Take a look at the above GIGANTIC posts and tell me where this applies? I don't see it.
 

Magus_Jerel said:
Standard A = MEA + Partial A - given definition standard action
Standard A = MEA + MEA - given definition Double Move

Therefore -
MEA + Partial A = MEA + MEA - by substitution
Partial A = MEA - by elimination
Standard A = Partial A + Partial A - by substitution

To state that "a standard action is not two partial actions" goes nowhere fast. How do you defeat the above logical and reasoned thought process? - you don't ... trust me you don't.

OK, I'll take this. I'm a big fan of applying math to D&D (for my own entertainment, usually :D), so basic algebra or formal logic wouldn't be a problem.

Your assumptions are wrong, though.

"Standard A = MEA + Partial A"
This is incorrect. See the definition of a partial action - you can't normally choose to take a partial action. For the time being, though, I'll assume you mean that you can take an action and move/MEA in the same round.

"Standard A = MEA + MEA"
Close, close, but no cigar. Try this:
"Standard action -> MEA + MEA"

You can substitute a "smaller" action for a "larger" one, but not the other way around. For example, you can choose to take a MEA as your entire action for a round instead of (say) a full attack. You couldn't take a full attack instead of a MEA, though!

"MEA + Partial A = MEA + MEA"
This step is fine, except that it's based on flawed premises.

"Partial A = MEA"
Ditto.

"Standard A = Partial A + Partial A"
This step is wrong, not only because it's based on incorrect assumptions, but bnecause D&D doesn't let you recombine actions. A fighter/wizard who casts haste on him/herself can't take the remaining MEA and combine it with the partial action to get a full attack.

Magus_Jerel said:
It would seem that to take a free action - you have to have the initiative, whereas the "not an action" category you can "do" or be made to do wether or not it is "your turn". However, logic similar to the point above also exists concerning free actions and not an action. It is however, not so easily "converted" into a systems of equations format - it requires the application of quantum principles.
Actually, if you have anything worked up I'd love to see it. Quantum mechanics isn't my field (by a long shot), but I have a fair understanding of how it works after a longtime fascination.

Magus_Jerel said:
A nasty little kobold sets off a pit trap under a wizard in combat.
Said wizard has a feather fall spell memorized.
Can said wizard use said spell - a free action by definition even if it is not his action - and doesn't have the initiative? There are three possible answers:

1. If you answer no - you get shot down by the nature, purpose and intent of the spell.

2. If you answer yes - then you can cast a spell as a free action when "it isn't your turn" - but not initiate one. Ie - you could only do such a thing as a reaction to someone else's action.

3. If you say "you can only use feather fall this way" - you get shot for inconsistency.

Considering that the first and third can be argued aganst rationally, while the second (although complicated in defense) cannot be - I have to go with the second.
None of these are technically correct. You realize that actions taken on a turn have really been happening through the full 6 seconds, and that the "turns" mechanic is just a simplification of this? Good.

You only start to fall on your turn, giving you time to cast it as a free action - on your turn. This is the way the rules work, and is a natural result of using discrete rounds instead of flowing time - which would be more trouble than it's worth, requiring a complete re-working of the rules.
 

CRGreathouse said:
...You only start to fall on your turn, giving you time to cast it as a free action - on your turn. This is the way the rules work, and is a natural result of using discrete rounds instead of flowing time - which would be more trouble than it's worth, requiring a complete re-working of the rules.

And there it is, the argument I was dreading having to make, mostly because I couldn't. :)

My apologies to you, Magus, as I thought we were talking about the d20 system (;) just teasin'). That, my friend, is why I didn't need to go back and read your post again. It's not that I actually understood your argument. I'll be frank. Your application of mathematics/logic to the action system left me stumped. Why? Well, I think it had something to do with the fact that the action system is so simple that you don't need to apply that kind of extensive logic to it. So, I tip my hat to you and acknowledge your intelligence. However, I totally, completely, and absolutely 100%, disagree. We have differing opinions, that's all. :)
 
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Perhaps I can clear all this up.

In a round (without haste) you may:

Take a Standard Action plus a Move, or take a Full-Round Action.

A Standard Action includes such thing as a single attack, readying an action, casting a single action spell, etc.

A Full-Round Action includes such thing a Full-Attack, or metamagic applied to a sorceror's spell.

A Partial Action is taken when that's ALL you can do - such as for a readied action. You also get one with Haste, or certain other special circumstances.

A Partial Action is not, in any way, shape or form part of regular action. It is, mostly, a Standard Action without a Move (Charge is the exception).

That's mostly it. I hope that helps.

The most important thing to remember is that you do NOT choose to take partial actions as part of regular actions - they are done as a result of a readied action or haste, or something similar.
 

This is incorrect. See the definition of a partial action - you can't normally choose to take a partial action.

the part of the definition youare trying to use is the following
Characters do not choose to take partial actions, but they are sometimes mandated by situations, such as a character's condition or a previous decision. Generally, a character can accomplish eitherportion of a standard action - that is either moving or attacking, but not both.

read the following - by a previous decision made by the player of that character. Why?

Usually, you don't elect to take a partial action. The condition you are in or a decision you have made mandates its use.
PHB 121

- The first sentence implies that I CAN willfully choose to take a partial action, but it is not necessarily to My "advantage" to do so.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
As far as defeating the math:
PA = partial action
mea = move equivalent action
SA = standard action

If you stick the -> in for the equals sign - you derive PA -> mea instead of PA = mea

just go to the definition of a partial action:

"a partial action is a standard actiion minus a move" (unless charging) or - in mathematical terms:

SA - mea = PA

now - transform the PA into mea ( I don't HAVE to go in reverse):

SA - mea = mea
SA = mea + mea

Which is what you said I "can't" use... that the transformation only works one way - it isn't reversible.


The moment I can relate a partial action, standard action, and a move equivalent action in any two formulas, then I can PROVE, by eliminating SA from the equation, that PA = mea. To attempt to maintain consistency - people throw up an argument that mandates the existence of non - quantum mechanical time wherein NOTHING is simultaneous. In essence - you act "while the rest of the world is frozen in place". If that were true - you have the situation of D&D "time stop". The dimension that you are in is static with respect to you - and you can't act on it - AT ALL, unless the "static moment" is finite and comes to an end. The absolute ridiculousness that ensues is what kreynolds points out.

Initiative is termed iniiative, and not turn order for a very simple reason. When it is not "your turn" - you cannot INITIATE an action. You can only "react" to another action - relating your action to that in a direct way. There are only three types of "reaction" possible:

1. A readied action - a mechanic already neatly drawn up

2. An "acton" could be taken only if it was finite enough not to count in the round system; and even then only in direct relation to another action. This means that the action must be "free" or "not an action".

3. A reaction of consequence (such as a saving throw) or taking damage - is possible, provided something else has initiated the action.

What happens is simple - yet critical.
One does not say:
you can't do that because it isn't your turn.

One says:
You can't do that because you do not have the initiative.

Thus - it is possible to take three possible "categories" of action when you don't have the initiative.

1. a readied action - if you have met the conditions needed for it

2. a free action in "response to" the action being initiated

3. a "non-action" - such as falling, taking damage ect... that represents the consequence of that action occuring at that moment.

kreynolds - truth is often stranger than fiction. That which appears simplistic and easy to understand is exactly what logic LIKES. It is simple, in terms of possible logical formulae.

Standard A = MEA + Partial A - given definition standard action
Standard A = MEA + MEA - given definition Double Move

Therefore -
MEA + Partial A = MEA + MEA - by substitution
Partial A = MEA - by elimination
Standard A = Partial A + Partial A - by substitution

The problem is it is SO simple that people think that it cannot be so;
Partial Action = Move equivalent action

They deny this simple very concretely proven fact without fail; and sure enough they make those absolutely incredulous claims that you so convienently pointed out. I strongly reccomend reading the section on page 62 of the dmg
simultinaeity in combat;

Stop thinking of actions in terms of category - think in terms of how much time they take.

full round actions and standard actions take 6 seconds

partial actions and move equivalent actions take 3 seconds

free actions and/or non actions take 1 second or less - or are part of some other action (i.e. when casting a spell, you prepare it's components).

now you have a universal way to look at time - in terms of how many seconds it takes to do something. Much much easier than all this "your turn" stuff. When you can only "start to do something new" on "you turn" - you learn where the word initiative came from - not "turn order".

btw - it is finite time - that generates static universes and the effects of the "time stop" spell in the first place... do you really want to mess with how time flows?
 

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