Can you teleport an unwilling, but unconscious, person with you?
- Thread starter Lazybones
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Just pokin'.Magus_Jerel
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- kreynolds...
the problem is that you are UNCONCIOUS - not just tied up. You cannot percieve the world around you; and don't even have the power to "will" something - one way or another. That's why it goes to the "object" argument of My previous post.
The Raise Dead, Ressurrection, and True Ressurection involve sentient souls - which are QUITE aware that they are being asked to return to their mortal bodies from their place in the afterlife.
The phrasing of the origional question "unwilling, but unconcious person" is paradoxical. That which is unconcious HAS no will, and cannot be willing - they are mutually exclusive categories.
the problem is that you are UNCONCIOUS - not just tied up. You cannot percieve the world around you; and don't even have the power to "will" something - one way or another. That's why it goes to the "object" argument of My previous post.
The Raise Dead, Ressurrection, and True Ressurection involve sentient souls - which are QUITE aware that they are being asked to return to their mortal bodies from their place in the afterlife.
The phrasing of the origional question "unwilling, but unconcious person" is paradoxical. That which is unconcious HAS no will, and cannot be willing - they are mutually exclusive categories.
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kreynolds
First Post
Magus_Jerel said:
Being "tied up" was never a part of my argument. Look to Don21584 for that.
Magus_Jerel said:
Then what exactly is the dividing line between unconscious and dead in regards to a soul? When exactly does the soul lose the will to survive? When exactly does the soul lose the capability to choose what happens to hit? Are you saying that when a being is dead, that it has risen to a higher state of existence, therefore it can decide it's own fate, but if the soul still resides within an unconsious or dying body, it has no say in what happens to it, that said soul cannot in any way resist the forces being applied against it?
Point of fact....
...this is DUNGEONS & DRAGONS...not a spiritual cult.
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Magus_Jerel
First Post
Unconcious means that you have a hp total between 0 and -9. At precicely -10hp; you become a soul and head into the afterlife. You also do this if you die of old age.
To answer your question metaphysically - Never; but I am not implying what follows by any means whatsoever.
The problem is not that the soul CANNOT choose - but is UNAWARE of the fact that a choice needs to be made - as this is what it means to be "unconcious" of the given spacio-temporal dimension. It is a matter of practical knowledge; not metaphysical will.
and - I was and still am RIGHT about that time thing...
Magus Coeruleus
Explorer
I'd allow it
I would allow the teleportation of unconscious creatures as if they were objects for two reasons:
1) It's fun to allow the evil mage to teleport someone away, and having to render them unconscious first makes it at least a bit difficult to pull off.
2) It's fun to be able to save your unconscious (and perhaps dying) comrade by teleporting him to safety.
In both cases, my rationale is not based on some unambiguously "correct" interpretation of the rules, but on one reasonable interpretation, motivated by what I think makes the spell more fun. Call it Rule 0 if you will. I'll call it plot fuel.
I would allow the teleportation of unconscious creatures as if they were objects for two reasons:
1) It's fun to allow the evil mage to teleport someone away, and having to render them unconscious first makes it at least a bit difficult to pull off.
2) It's fun to be able to save your unconscious (and perhaps dying) comrade by teleporting him to safety.
In both cases, my rationale is not based on some unambiguously "correct" interpretation of the rules, but on one reasonable interpretation, motivated by what I think makes the spell more fun. Call it Rule 0 if you will. I'll call it plot fuel.
Crothian
First Post
Okay after reading this all (sorry I missed out on some good posts, but Star Wars called) it seems that there are a few problems with reading.
The key phrase as I see it is: "You can bring along objects and willing creatures..."
I'll assume we have all figured out what no save means, so I will go past that part. The way I see it is a willing creature has to make a conscience effort to get teleported. Note, that it does not say anything about unwilling. People are assuming that the only states of willingness a person can be in is Willing and Unwilling. That is not true. There is a third state, and that is the state of unconscience or similiar effect. In such a state a person cannote be willing or unwilling, we all seem to agree on that. Thus the third state is nuetral in regard to willing. So, only a person willing himself can be teleported.
The key phrase as I see it is: "You can bring along objects and willing creatures..."
I'll assume we have all figured out what no save means, so I will go past that part. The way I see it is a willing creature has to make a conscience effort to get teleported. Note, that it does not say anything about unwilling. People are assuming that the only states of willingness a person can be in is Willing and Unwilling. That is not true. There is a third state, and that is the state of unconscience or similiar effect. In such a state a person cannote be willing or unwilling, we all seem to agree on that. Thus the third state is nuetral in regard to willing. So, only a person willing himself can be teleported.
As a brief spin-off, does this mean that an unconscious person sacrifices all Will saves?
Does this mean that you can pummel an opponent into the ground, then throw a Charm Person at him and he's be your best buddy. Or better still, (at higher levels), throw a Dominate Person and make him your servant...
The possibilities are beginning to look interesting...(insert evil DM's laugh)
Does this mean that you can pummel an opponent into the ground, then throw a Charm Person at him and he's be your best buddy. Or better still, (at higher levels), throw a Dominate Person and make him your servant...
The possibilities are beginning to look interesting...(insert evil DM's laugh)
Somebody in this threat argued that an unconscious person would not get a will save in the same way as a helpless person would not get a reflex save. This made me wonder what the PHB actually says about this, because in my memory it is exactly the other way around: a creature always gets a savingthrow unless he consciously decides not to take one.
Looking at page 133: Helpless defender, all it states is that the character has got an effective dexterity of 0 (-5 penalty to dex). It does not mention anything about any saves that will fail automatically. So I checked PHB page 150 and again I do not find anything to support this effect. In fact, the text in voluntarily giving up a saving throw suggests that it takes a conscious action to give up a save. The exception to this are harmless spells, where it takes a conscious action to make a save. Looking at page 119 also does not mention anything about saves not working when a person is unconscious. So there is absolutely no rule that I can find to support the opinion that helpless persons can only make fortitude saves. In fact, they can even make reflex saves. Which is not to strange since unconscious characters still tend to have reflexes.
As far as teleporting is concerned. The state of unconsciousness can be reached through more means then hit point reduction. In fact, a simple sleep spell will have the same effect. So if you allow unconscious people to be teleported against their will, you are opening a can of worms. In the end though I agree with people, that to treat unconscious people as objects is story wise probably the best descision.
Looking at page 133: Helpless defender, all it states is that the character has got an effective dexterity of 0 (-5 penalty to dex). It does not mention anything about any saves that will fail automatically. So I checked PHB page 150 and again I do not find anything to support this effect. In fact, the text in voluntarily giving up a saving throw suggests that it takes a conscious action to give up a save. The exception to this are harmless spells, where it takes a conscious action to make a save. Looking at page 119 also does not mention anything about saves not working when a person is unconscious. So there is absolutely no rule that I can find to support the opinion that helpless persons can only make fortitude saves. In fact, they can even make reflex saves. Which is not to strange since unconscious characters still tend to have reflexes.
As far as teleporting is concerned. The state of unconsciousness can be reached through more means then hit point reduction. In fact, a simple sleep spell will have the same effect. So if you allow unconscious people to be teleported against their will, you are opening a can of worms. In the end though I agree with people, that to treat unconscious people as objects is story wise probably the best descision.
jasper
Rotten DM
It appears comes down to this.
Spell gives no save except for objects.
So scotty can beam kirk up. If kirk is willing. If kirk is unwilling scotty can beam up kirk's pants. They get a save.
No if kirk is pass out from drinking dwarven ale.
Most people have said Kirk is beam out because he unable to make a decision.
The conditions summary are no help they only cover reflex.
The ability mods int 0 unconscious and helpless, wis 0 deep sleep and helpless
Int 0 immune to mind spells charm compulsions etc so charm person would not work.
Wis 0 anything with no wis score is object.
the spell states ...Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and SR....
so the be a save as an object.
checking the magic overview we get ...Object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, etc.) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object gets the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. ...
I would rule you always attend your own body.
so the person will get a will save at -5 And lost any bonus from wisdom
This would be far and regardless scotty is trying to beam kirk out or ming is trying to beam him out the drunken sot will get a saving throw.
Spell gives no save except for objects.
So scotty can beam kirk up. If kirk is willing. If kirk is unwilling scotty can beam up kirk's pants. They get a save.
No if kirk is pass out from drinking dwarven ale.
Most people have said Kirk is beam out because he unable to make a decision.
The conditions summary are no help they only cover reflex.
The ability mods int 0 unconscious and helpless, wis 0 deep sleep and helpless
Int 0 immune to mind spells charm compulsions etc so charm person would not work.
Wis 0 anything with no wis score is object.
the spell states ...Only objects held or in use (attended) by another person receive saving throws and SR....
so the be a save as an object.
checking the magic overview we get ...Object): The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, etc.) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object gets the creature's saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. ...
I would rule you always attend your own body.
so the person will get a will save at -5 And lost any bonus from wisdom
This would be far and regardless scotty is trying to beam kirk out or ming is trying to beam him out the drunken sot will get a saving throw.
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