can you weapon finesse a two handed double weapon?

[Nonlethal Force]

3.5 says you can pretend that it is a 1 handed and a light weapon, for purposes of two weapon fighting. Using the other end of a quarterstaff doesn't make it easier to use. :\

Last time I checked, D&D wasn't about reality so much as it was about rules and their implementation. So we have:

One-handed weapon and light weapon: Get any itteratives with main hand, get extra attack with off hand, TWF reduces penalties, Light off-hand reduces penalties even more, Weapon finesse with off-hand if weapon is finesseable.

Double weapon: Get any itteratives with one end, get an extra attack with off hand, TWF reduces penalties, Off-hand side automatically considered light reduces penalties even more, weapon finesse with off hand weapon.



I'm not saying the weapon finesse part makes actual sense. What I am saying is that it is there for parallel rules. It makes the game easier to play because the rules make logical parallels. It may not make sense in real life combat, but it does make sense from a game design standpoint.

It's exactly the same principle as to why people complain about the turning undead rules and the grapple rules. They are anomolies in the rule design. There are no similar rules, they are stand-alones. Because they are stand-alones, they are easy to forget ... so people always have to look them up and thus they complain. [Rightly so, IMO] It is the same thing here, except they made the right decision. By treating double weapons the way that they do, they make great parallels between double weapons and the normal TWF rules. That is great game design.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Part of the advantage of double weapons is that they always count as 2 handed weapons for disarm and sunder, because you're actually using 2 hands to wield them. You just get the penalties for TWF. A crossbow gets the same bonus, even though you can fire it with one hand. Though if you do fire it with one hand, then it is a one-handed weapon for disarm and sunder. Why someone would fire it with one hand and keep holding it is as much a mystery as why someone would sunder or disarm an empty crossbow.

The Power Attack thing is for balancing of the rules, so one fighting style isn't way better than another. If they had left Power Attack at 2 to 1, 1 to 1, and .5 to 1, then there would've been no room for argument.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Part of the advantage of double weapons is that they always count as 2 handed weapons for disarm and sunder, because you're actually using 2 hands to wield them. You just get the penalties for TWF.

And 1.5x Str bonus to damage with the primary end? (And potentially the off-hand end, depending on how the DM rules the precedence between the two-handed weapon rule and the off-hand weapon rule.)

-Hyp.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

you're trying to lump it all together. separate it to: counts as xx for yy, and counts as xy for yz.

if you're holding a weapon in 2 hands, and someone tries to sunder or disarm, you get the 2handed bonus.
if you are wielding it as a 2handed weapon, you get 2 for 1 Power Attack.
if you're TWF with it, you get TWF penalties of the same magnitude as if you were using 2 separate weapons, one of which was a one handed weapon, and one was a light weapon.
If you're TWF and Power Attacking, 1 for 1 all around. you're not 2 handing one end, but also neither end is actually a light weapon.
That is as close as you'll come to balanced without having 1.5 to 1, 1 to 1, and 0.5 to 1 Power Attack.

 

[Hypersmurf]

if you're holding a weapon in 2 hands, and someone tries to sunder or disarm, you get the 2handed bonus.

I'm talking about if you attempt to disarm, not if someone attempts to disarm you.

I have a two-bladed sword, a BAB of +1, and the TWF feat. I take an attack action and attempt to disarm you, using the sword as a two-handed weapon. I get a +4 bonus to my disarm check.

Next round, I take a full attack action and attempt to disarm you twice - once with each end of the sword. What modifier do I apply to each end?

If you're TWF and Power Attacking, 1 for 1 all around. you're not 2 handing one end, but also neither end is actually a light weapon.

The off-hand end gets no bonus for Power Attack. It absolutely counts as a light weapon for the purpose of Power Attack, whether you read the line in the feat as specific to Power Attack, or general.

And you still haven't addressed Str bonus to damage. If I'm using both ends of a double weapon, do I add my Str bonus or 1.5x my Str bonus to damage with the primary end?

-Hyp.

 

[Kmart Kommando]

I'm talking about if you attempt to disarm, not if someone attempts to disarm you.

I have a two-bladed sword, a BAB of +1, and the TWF feat. I take an attack action and attempt to disarm you, using the sword as a two-handed weapon. I get a +4 bonus to my disarm check.

Next round, I take a full attack action and attempt to disarm you twice - once with each end of the sword. What modifier do I apply to each end?

no penalties, no +4 either. actually, TWF doesn't change anything about double weapons:

Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon were a light weapon.

Nothing about treating it as a 1 handed and light weapon, just reduced penalties compared to 2 one-handed weapons as per TWF. So there is room to argue +4 on each end.

The off-hand end gets no bonus for Power Attack. It absolutely counts as a light weapon for the purpose of Power Attack, whether you read the line in the feat as specific to Power Attack, or general.

Which is why I say they should have had Power Attack at 2 for 1, 1 for 1, and .5 for 1.

And you still haven't addressed Str bonus to damage. If I'm using both ends of a double weapon, do I add my Str bonus or 1.5x my Str bonus to damage with the primary end?

-Hyp.

1xSTR on main end, 0.5xSTR on offhand end. Even if you're dual wielding bastard swords, you get 1xSTR on main hand and .5xSTR on offhand. Built-in balancing between the fighting styles.

 

[Hypersmurf]

no penalties, no +4 either. actually, TWF doesn't change anything about double weapons:
Nothing about treating it as a 1 handed and light weapon, just reduced penalties compared to 2 one-handed weapons as per TWF. So there is room to argue +4 on each end.

That's my point - except I don't think it's 'room to argue'; if you deny Weapon Finesse because you only count it as 1H+L for TWF penalties, then you must grant the +4 with both ends for Disarm.

1xSTR on main end, 0.5xSTR on offhand end. Even if you're dual wielding bastard swords, you get 1xSTR on main hand and .5xSTR on offhand.

Because a bastard sword is a one-handed weapon. A double weapon is a two-handed weapon. Why not 1.5x?

A two-handed weapon adds 1.5x Str bonus to damage. That's not an attack penalty associated with two-weapon fighting, so why would it change when you're using a double weapon?

-Hyp.

 

[hong]

1xSTR on main end, 0.5xSTR on offhand end. Even if you're dual wielding bastard swords, you get 1xSTR on main hand and .5xSTR on offhand. Built-in balancing between the fighting styles.

Mang, you'll hate Iron Heroes. 1.5xStr on both ends!

 

[Kmart Kommando]

That's my point - except I don't think it's 'room to argue'; if you deny Weapon Finesse because you only count it as 1H+L for TWF penalties, then you must grant the +4 with both ends for Disarm.



Because a bastard sword is a one-handed weapon. A double weapon is a two-handed weapon. Why not 1.5x?

A two-handed weapon adds 1.5x Str bonus to damage. That's not an attack penalty associated with two-weapon fighting, so why would it change when you're using a double weapon?

-Hyp.

Except it says if you use 2 weapons, the STR to damage is 1xSTR and .5xSTR, no matter what those weapons are. Double weapons are considered 2 weapons for TWF, it says so in the TWF entry. They have a lessened penalty, not a greater bonus.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Except it says if you use 2 weapons, the STR to damage is 1xSTR and .5xSTR, no matter what those weapons are.

Where?

It's a two-handed weapon.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

It's treated as 1H+L for purposes of attack penalties associated with Two-Weapon Fighting. Your Str bonus and how it is applied is not an attack penalty associated with Two-Weapon Fighting.

Where does it say "If you use two weapons, apply 1x Str bonus and .5x Str bonus"?

It says that an attack with a one-handed weapon used in your primary hand adds Str bonus to damage. But a double weapon isn't a one-handed weapon, and it isn't considered one except for the purpose of attack penalties associated with Two-Weapon Fighting, right?

-Hyp.