can you weapon finesse a two handed double weapon?

[Kmart Kommando]

Where?

It's a two-handed weapon.

Two-Handed: Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Actually, it's a Two handed weapon, with the Double Weapon descriptor, with changes how it behaves, and the ways it can be used.

Double Weapons: Dire flails, dwarven urgroshes, gnome hooked hammers, orc double axes, quarterstaffs, and two-bladed swords are double weapons. A character can fight with both ends of a double weapon as if fighting with two weapons, but he or she incurs all the normal attack penalties associated with two-weapon combat, just as though the character were wielding a one-handed weapon and a light weapon.
The character can also choose to use a double weapon two handed, attacking with only one end of it. A creature wielding a double weapon in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

It's one or the other, not both at once.

It's treated as 1H+L for purposes of attack penalties associated with Two-Weapon Fighting. Your Str bonus and how it is applied is not an attack penalty associated with Two-Weapon Fighting.

True, but it is called out in both the entry for Strength, and Two Weapon Fighting.

Where does it say "If you use two weapons, apply 1x Str bonus and .5x Str bonus"?

see below

It says that an attack with a one-handed weapon used in your primary hand adds Str bonus to damage. But a double weapon isn't a one-handed weapon, and it isn't considered one except for the purpose of attack penalties associated with Two-Weapon Fighting, right?

STRENGTH (STR)
Strength measures your character’s muscle and physical power. This ability is especially important for fighters, barbarians, paladins, rangers, and monks because it helps them prevail in combat. Strength also limits the amount of equipment your character can carry.
You apply your character’s Strength modifier to:
• Melee attack rolls.
• Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon (including a sling). (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only one-half the character’s Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive one and a half times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.)
• Climb, Jump, and Swim checks. These are the skills that have Strength as their key ability.
• Strength checks (for breaking down doors and the like).

TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 15.
Benefit: Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6.
Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
Special: A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.
A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.

How much of your STR bonus can be applied to an attack is based on how the weapon is wielded for that attack. Offhand attacks are clearly defined. One-handed attacks are clearly defined.
As for a double weapon: Are you getting an extra attack(s) by TWFing it? Then it is 1xSTR and .5xSTR. Are you 2handing it for extra damage? Then 1.5xSTR and no extra attacks.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, it's a Two handed weapon, with the Double Weapon descriptor, with changes how it behaves, and the ways it can be used.

It's one or the other, not both at once.

It's always a two-handed weapon. It's treated as a one-handed weapon and light weapon for certain purposes.

True, but it is called out in both the entry for Strength, and Two Weapon Fighting.

The entry for Two-Handed Weapons contains additional information not found in either of those places.

How much of your STR bonus can be applied to an attack is based on how the weapon is wielded for that attack.

Not according to the text of Two-Handed Weapons.

Offhand attacks are clearly defined.

I agree, although there is a contradiction if one makes an off-hand attack with a two-handed weapon; personally, I'd rule that the off-hand attack rule takes precedence in this case, but a DM could rule the other way.

One-handed attacks are clearly defined.

Not really. An attack with the primary hand with a light or one-handed weapon is clearly defined (Str bonus to damage), and an attack with a two-handed weapon is clearly defined (1.5x Str bonus to damage).

As for a double weapon: Are you getting an extra attack(s) by TWFing it? Then it is 1xSTR and .5xSTR.

Only if you're, for some reason, not considering it to be a two-handed weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Actually, it's a Two handed weapon, with the Double Weapon descriptor, with changes how it behaves, and the ways it can be used.

Errr? AFAIK only spells have descriptors. Not sure where you got this idea from. Can you site a page number for referece?

How much of your STR bonus can be applied to an attack is based on how the weapon is wielded for that attack.

That is not true. Take a look at the Lance for example. That is a two-handed weapon that can be used in one hand while mounted, but even if you wield it in one hand (while mounted), you still apply 1.5x Str (because it is a two-handed weapon).

The only time it matters how a weapon is wielded is with one-handed weapons wielded in two-hands. Per the SRD:

If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls.

and

Two hands are required to use a two-handed melee weapon effectively. Apply 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with such a weapon.

Note that the first sentence there is the general rule. Of course feats can break the general rule, and so can other things so long as it is explicitly called out, such as the Lance.

While mounted, you can wield a lance with one hand.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Edit: It would go +7/+3, since you always make attacks from highest bonus to lowest.

It's been somewhat forgotten in the shuffle, but I wanted to respond to the above.

Specifically, you make attacks which come from a high BAB in order from highest bonus to lowest. Since off-hand attacks do not come from a high BAB, they can be made in any order.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

Specifically, you make attacks which come from a high BAB in order from highest bonus to lowest. Since off-hand attacks do not come from a high BAB, they can be made in any order.

That's a very interesting - and good - catch, PoE. I hadn't really thought about the consequences of this before, but I had always played it that way, of course. I guess what I'm saying is that I've never consciously thought about abusing it ... ... before now!

 

[Kmart Kommando]

Descriptors come from Iron Heroes, so ignore that word.
However, every double weapon in 3.5 says "this is a double weapon".


So, if Bob the fighter doesn't have EWP: Bastard Sword, and he tries to use one in one hand, he gets 1.5xSTR with it? He is using a 2 handed martial weapon, after all.


If someone tried to get away with 2-handed damage while wielding a lance one-handed on horseback, anyone in any group I've ever played in would laugh at them.

Ditto trying to squeeze 2xSTR out of a quarterstaff.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Descriptors come from Iron Heroes, so ignore that word.
However, every double weapon in 3.5 says "this is a double weapon".

True, but by the same token, every double weapon is listed as a Two-Handed Weapon.

So, if Bob the fighter doesn't have EWP: Bastard Sword, and he tries to use one in one hand, he gets 1.5xSTR with it? He is using a 2 handed martial weapon, after all.

Huh? No he's not. Bastard Sword is a One-Handed Melee Weapon. Check your book.

If you do not have EWP: Bastard Sword then you can wield the Bastard Sword in two hands as a Martial Weapon. You would get 1.5x your Str bonus to damage per the rule:

If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls.

If you do not have EWP: Bastard Sword and try to wield it in one hand, then you take the appropriate penalities for not being proficient in the weapon, and you only apply 1x Str in damage, because it is a One-Handed Melee Weapon.

If someone tried to get away with 2-handed damage while wielding a lance one-handed on horseback, anyone in any group I've ever played in would laugh at them.

:shrug: I'm just telling you how the RAW works. FWIW, the FAQ agrees with you (I'm not sure if you consider that a good thing or a bad thing).

 

[hong]

So, if Bob the fighter doesn't have EWP: Bastard Sword, and he tries to use one in one hand, he gets 1.5xSTR with it? He is using a 2 handed martial weapon, after all.

No, since a bastard sword is a one-handed weapon that has the special property it can be used in 2 hands as a martial weapon.

 

[glass]

Edit: It would go +7/+3, since you always make attacks from highest bonus to lowest.

Only attacks derived from high bab (ie iteatives), which this these aren't.

EDIT: Or, what Patryn said.


glass.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Only attacks derived from high bab (ie iteatives), which this these aren't.


glass.

Dude, I totally beat you by, like, almost an entire day on that one.