Cannot use lance in a mounted charge?

[Philip]

I am a little bit confused about using lances on horseback during a charge:

If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).

From this it becomes clear that it is the mount that charges, not its rider. But then:

You must move before your attack, not after. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent. After moving, you may make a single melee attack.

This means that a normal warhorse (with a reach of 5 ft.) will end up in base-to-base contact with an opponent and can then make its charge attack. And its rider?:

Lance: A lance deals double damage when used from the back of a charging mount. It has reach, so you can strike opponents 10 feet away with it, but you can’t use it against an adjacent foe.

Summarizing, you can not move after a charge, can make only an attack at the end of the charge, at the end of the charge you are 5 ft. distant from your opponent, you cannot attack the opponent from 5 ft. distance with a lance.

What gives?

 

[Infiniti2000]

That's all correct.

So, now that you've noticed the problem you can houserule that the mount can stop in the closest space for either the rider or the mount (depending on who's attacking as the rider desires), like the rest of us.

 

[Philip]

That's all correct.

So, now that you've noticed the problem you can houserule that the mount can stop in the closest space for either the rider or the mount (depending on who's attacking as the rider desires), like the rest of us.

It did not know it was a common problem, never did much mounted combat....

But, if it is the mount that charges, you should have your full complement of actions available. So you theoretically you can ready an attack with your lance when your target comes within reach, attack when your readied action triggers and still have your mount attack as well, right?

It just that by a literal reading of the rules, you get your attack that way, albeit not at +2, but still take the -2 penalty to AC and do double damage if you hit.

 

[Warehouse23]

This is only a problem if you want your mount to also attack as part of a charge (which might not be an unreasonable thing to want). This gets into the gray areas of the mount rules. Arguably, the character can charge (as a full round action), attacking with a lance, while mounted (using the mount's movement rate to determine charge distance). By that reading the mount basically loses any actions it was entitled to, but then again, mounts tend not to be players, so who's going to complain?

 

[Infiniti2000]

But, if it is the mount that charges, you should have your full complement of actions available. So you theoretically you can ready an attack with your lance when your target comes within reach, attack when your readied action triggers and still have your mount attack as well, right?

You don't have the full complement available. In fact, when your mount moves, it specifically limits you to a single melee attack (though you can make a full ranged attack). You could ready, I suppose, but that's like moving up to someone and then readying to attack them for when you ready to attack them. If such a situation is really required by the rules, that's when a houserule is needed.

It just that by a literal reading of the rules, you get your attack that way, albeit not at +2, but still take the -2 penalty to AC and do double damage if you hit.

Sure, which you've noted as odd.

It's a common question for those who are just starting out with mounts and lances and the like. This is one area where I think the Rules of the Game does an admirable job.

 

[glass]

Summarizing, you can not move after a charge, can make only an attack at the end of the charge, at the end of the charge you are 5 ft. distant from your opponent, you cannot attack the opponent from 5 ft. distance with a lance.

Except, when mounted you can attack from any of your mount's squares. A horse (as a large creature) takes up four squares, the rear two of which are 10 ft from your target. Problem solved.


glass.

 

[Krelios]

It's simple, you bolded the wrong part of the quote on charging.

You must move before your attack, not after. First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent.

You stop your charge 10' from the target and stab him with the lance.

 

[Veril]

The end of your charge is 10' away from the opponent. That's where you make the attack from. You don't end up 5' away, read the whole sentance "First, you must move to the closest space from which you can attack the opponent", it's not move to the closest space, the from which bit it a critical modifier to the positioning rule

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I guess part of the initial question is where the rider is in relation to the horse. It occupies a 10X10 square. Could the rider be considered to be in one of the 2 back squares. That way, the rider is in reach with their lance and the horse can attack? Does it specify anywhere?


[Silly]
Could you make a full attack on a lance charge? Throw Anything + Quickdraw + big bag of lances. I don't think it specifies a melee attack with the lance to get double damage? It only says the mount has to charge. Not the rider. Hmmm.
[/Silly]

 

[Blue]

I guess part of the initial question is where the rider is in relation to the horse. It occupies a 10X10 square. Could the rider be considered to be in one of the 2 back squares. That way, the rider is in reach with their lance and the horse can attack? Does it specify anywhere?

I don't have the reference in front of me, but a rider is considered to take up the same squares as his mount. This is both in the books and in Skip's Sage article about mounts from a while ago. Yes, this means a medium creature riding a large creature takes up four squares.

Cheers,
=Blue