Can't get my head around the Hide skill

[AzraelLOD]

Not correct. According to the Complete Adventurer rules, you do NOT need cover or concealment at all times. You need to start hidden in such cover or concealment, but then you can move into open space at a penalty to try and sneak up and attack.

You weren't reading this in context of the (second) question I was answering, so please read over the original question before making such a claim. The question I was answering concerned Person #1, Hiding in a fixed space, who then attacked Person #2 from that fixed space as Person #2 walked up adjacent to Person #1.

You are correct that you can sneak up to someone after making a new Hide check after originally being hidden in cover or concealment. I'm not contradicting that. But that's not what I was referring to in my answer. The question was whether someone is flat-footed when you attack them from a fixed 5 ft. square after making a Hide check when you stay in the same space. My answer was yes, that you can catch them flat-footed as long as you can still technically Hide, which requires that you stay in some sort of concealment or cover.

 

[AzraelLOD]

Text wise, the rolls are opposed and might even get re-rolled in case of a tie, but that's all I got.

The PHB specifies that whenever opposed skill rolls are made, the person with the highest bonus wins in the case of a tie. It's only re-rolled if the opposed parties have the same skill modifier. I'll see if I can find the page number...

[edit] The page number in the PHB is 64. You can also find it here on the SRD site - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#opposedChecks

 

[AzraelLOD]

I am simply arguing that it would be hard to assume flat footedness if the opponent knows what square you are in, and has a really good reason to believe you are going to whack them the moment you move by that square. I mean, if you run into a 5 x 5 closet, and your opponent sees you run into that closet and knows it has no other exit, then when the opponent moves up to that closet I think it would be difficult to assume that your hide check and cover provided by the closet allows you to attack your opponent as if they were flat footed.

That's why you play the NPC as being very cautious when checking out the closet. There's nothing to prevent the NPC from throwing a flask of alchemists fire in the closet or simply using a reach weapon to attack the location, and I agree with you that the NPC should get a pretty hefty circumstance bonus to any Spot check made against the Hide check of the person in the closet.

 

[moritheil]

Some of us say visually undetected. You have not yet been seen, but you can be seen, thus you don't reach invisibility’s "visually undetectable" standard. It might sound like a spliting of hairs and to some it is, but to others, it keeps hellacious hide bonuses from becoming improved invisibility.

Could you remind us as to why that's a bad thing? Someone with absurd modifiers to hide will either have built their entire character around it or be epic. I can't see how letting such a character act as though under the effect of improved invisibility is a problem in terms of balance.

 

[mikebr99]

...And... using the hide skill (to remain visually undetected for it's round's use) still needs to be combined with actual movement, or is a move action all by itself. The use of the hide skill isn't a free or swift action... you are only going to be able to get a standard action's (& free or swift if appropiate) worth of attacks (with the benefit of the target being flat-footed) against the target who lost the spot check.

Mike

 

[Mistwell]

...And... using the hide skill (to remain visually undetected for it's round's use) still needs to be combined with actual movement, or is a move action all by itself. The use of the hide skill isn't a free or swift action... you are only going to be able to get a standard action's (& free or swift if appropiate) worth of attacks (with the benefit of the target being flat-footed) against the target who lost the spot check.

Mike

I think you are touching on a similar debate actually. In my opinion, once you make a hide check, unless the circumstances change you don't make a hide check again, and you don't spend an action every single round hiding again. If you are standing still and in hiding, you make the check in round 1, and it will last until something changes to force a new hide check or you are no longer hidden. You wouldn't make it in round 2 and 3, and therefore wouldn't spend an action in round 2 or 3 for a re-check. Nothing in the skill implies it lasts "1 round". If someone stops right next to your hiding place, and you previously made the hide check from that spot, and they don't spot you, you should be able to make a full attack against their flat-footed AC.

 

[Paul Grogan]

Over 6 years since the arrival of 3e, and I still don't completely get how to mechanically apply the Hide skill. For example:

- How often is it rolled when a character is moving?

- What if I'm moving through shadows (with a normal move of 30), but stop every 50 feet and wait a minute. How often do I roll Hide?

I seem to disagree with a lot of other posters here, but I dont make the character roll their hide check at any point. First of all, I roll it secretly so they dont know, although if I get really high or really low, I might give them a clue.

But more importantly, there is no point making the hide check unless there is something to hide against. It is an opposed roll against the persons spot. I do it the same as the Use rope skill. You tie someone up - its a use rope check. But, you dont actually make the use rope check until they try and escape.

So, the player says to me that they are hiding, move a bit, hide again, etc. etc. I rattle dice behind my screen whilst talking and describing. The game isnt slowed down at all, the player is just describing that he is hiding as best they can. This is what I use when our scout is moving ahead at the front of the group when they dont know anything is there or not.

If you let the player roll, you either get them to keep rolling, or only when someone has a chance to spot them, although this gives too much away.

If the PC knows that there is an enemy there and is trying to hide / sneak past him, then the player could roll, but only at the point where the enemy can see / hear them.

Hope that made sense, late here and not much sleep

 

[mikebr99]

I think you are touching on a similar debate actually. In my opinion, once you make a hide check, unless the circumstances change you don't make a hide check again, and you don't spend an action every single round hiding again.

Could you define "circumstances"?
Does it include moving somewhere else the next round?
Does it include attacking?

If you are standing still and in hiding, you make the check in round 1, and it will last until something changes to force a new hide check or you are no longer hidden. You wouldn't make it in round 2 and 3, and therefore wouldn't spend an action in round 2 or 3 for a re-check. Nothing in the skill implies it lasts "1 round". If someone stops right next to your hiding place, and you previously made the hide check from that spot, and they don't spot you, you should be able to make a full attack against their flat-footed AC.

After your 1st attack in a full attack action, you will be detected by your target because you have done something that warrants an opposed check... and you now do not have cover concealment.. or a move action left to actually perform a hide check.

If you wish to remain hidden while attacking... you can do so, but you'll take a -20 to your hide check (which is a move action to perform)... and you'll have a std. action left to "attack". This assumes that you still have cover/concealment between you and your target... that isn't also providing cover/concealment TOO your target, because then SA wouldn't be added to your damage.

And I would argue (I guess I am...) that a sucessful hide check does only last one round, because all of the Spotters will be looking for you every round. If you choose to do nothing that would change how well you had perviously hidden, then you should just keep your hide check number again for the spotters to try and beat again.

The Hide skill points out exactly how long it lasts for (and the penalties):
1/2 move (no penalty), std and free actions remaining
< normal move (-5), std and free actions remaining
attacking (-20), move action and free actions remaining... or just free actions if you wish to remain hidden.
running (-20), free actions remaining
charging (-20), free actions remaining
Missile fire (-20), move action and free actions remaining... or just free actions if you wish to remain hidden.

all of the above are completely within one round...

Mike