Can't get my head around the Hide skill

[SWAT]

So after reading the expanded Hide description in Complete Adventurer, which was very eye-opening, and clarified that you need cover or concealement to stay hidden after the intial Hide action, an idea came to me.

If the following is possible (according to Complete Adventurer)...

During combat, I move around a corner. I have total cover from all enemies. When an enemy gets within 10ft, I move out from behind the corner, move up to the enemy, make a Hide check with the appropriate penalties, and attack. The enemy rolls Spot, and unless they beat my Hide, they're flat-footed against my attack.

...then shouldn't this also be possible?

During combat, I move around a corner and stay as close as possible to it. I have total cover from all enemies. I ready an action to attack the first enemy that's within reach. When an enemy comes to the corner, I attack. They didn't know where I was, and I didn't move out in the open, so I make a Hide check with no penalties, and attack. The enemy rolls Spot, and unless they beat my Hide, they're flat-footed against my attack.

Seems like the logical conclusion to the new rules presented in Complete Adventurer, right?

 

[Mistwell]

I think that two combat scenarios have been mentioned where the Hide skill was intended for use:

1) Ambush scenarios, where an opponent is considered flat-footed.

2) Breaking initiative and hence combat rounds to allow escape from an enemy.

Outside of those two specific instances where someone either lies in wait to ambush a foe or attempts to Hide in an effort to flee, Hiding in combat to gain advantages should be extremely difficult.


Hopefully my opinion and this info was helpful to you folks.

How can you break initiative, when hiding merely equates with not being easily detectable?

 

[Mistwell]

During combat, I move around a corner. I have total cover from all enemies. When an enemy gets within 10ft, I move out from behind the corner, move up to the enemy, make a Hide check with the appropriate penalties, and attack. The enemy rolls Spot, and unless they beat my Hide, they're flat-footed against my attack.

Ah, yeah, that is the rule I was looking for:

You can also use this option to sneak up on someone from a hiding place. For every 5 feet of open space between you and the target, you take a -5 penalty on your Hide check. If your Hide check succeeds, your target doesn't notice you until you attack or make some other attention-grabbing action. Such a target is treated as being flat-footed with respect to you.

As for your second part, it depends on whether or not your target knew you were behind that cover.

 

[SWAT]

As for your second part, it depends on whether or not your target knew you were behind that cover.

That, I don't get, and can't think of anywhere in the rules that it's stated. Sure the target knows I turned the corner, but they have no idea where I am. And it seems the Complete Adventurer text is pretty clear on the fact that if they don't know where I am and I can manage to attack them without them spotting me, the target is flat-footed.

 

[Mistwell]

That, I don't get, and can't think of anywhere in the rules that it's stated. Sure the target knows I turned the corner, but they have no idea where I am. And it seems the Complete Adventurer text is pretty clear on the fact that if they don't know where I am and I can manage to attack them without them spotting me, the target is flat-footed.

"If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went."

 

[mikebr99]

"If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went."

And how do they know that I stoped as soon as I was out of sight... and didn't leave the rest of my party to die a horrible death without me?

Mike

 

[AzraelLOD]

How can you break initiative, when hiding merely equates with not being easily detectable?

When I referred to breaking initiative previously, it was assuming that only the Hiding character was in combat. If you're able to move into concealment (in light undergrowth, for example), make a hide check, and no enemies spot you after a few rounds, the logical conclusion is that they're likely leave you alone which breaks initiative.

Whether or not the enemies leave the area completely is a different story. It's certainly possible that you'll have to make Move Silently and Hide checks in order to escape.

 

[AzraelLOD]

So after reading the expanded Hide description in Complete Adventurer, which was very eye-opening, and clarified that you need cover or concealement to stay hidden after the intial Hide action, an idea came to me.

If the following is possible (according to Complete Adventurer)...

During combat, I move around a corner. I have total cover from all enemies. When an enemy gets within 10ft, I move out from behind the corner, move up to the enemy, make a Hide check with the appropriate penalties, and attack. The enemy rolls Spot, and unless they beat my Hide, they're flat-footed against my attack.

This is possible assuming that you are still behind cover or concealment when the enemy approaches within 10 ft. As long as the enemy still cannot Spot you after moving within 10 ft. (due to your Hide check while still behind cover or concealment), then this scenario should work exactly as you describe as long as the enemy doesn't Spot you after you make a new Hide check when moving up to attack.

...then shouldn't this also be possible?

During combat, I move around a corner and stay as close as possible to it. I have total cover from all enemies. I ready an action to attack the first enemy that's within reach. When an enemy comes to the corner, I attack. They didn't know where I was, and I didn't move out in the open, so I make a Hide check with no penalties, and attack. The enemy rolls Spot, and unless they beat my Hide, they're flat-footed against my attack.

Seems like the logical conclusion to the new rules presented in Complete Adventurer, right?

This also depends on whether you still have cover or concealment at the moment you attack. If you do not have cover or concealment, then you are unable to make a Hide check and get the benefit of catching the enemy flat-footed. As long as there is at least some cover or concealment between you and your enemy (like the corner of a wall), then you should be able to pull this off.

Whether or not the enemy knows the general area you ran off to shouldn't matter in most circumstances in terms of giving any benefit to the enemy aside from general knowledge of where you might be. The text in Complete Adventurer describing how an enemy still knows where abouts you went is there simply to tell you that the enemy could still target a 5 ft. square and attack it even though the enemy can't actually see anyone. The enemy of course would not overcome the benefit of the concealment or cover you're using, but the enemy could certainly try to attack the square to see if someone was there. The lesson to be learned from that is not to try and Hide somewhere that's limited to only a 5 ft. square (like Hiding in a barrel while an enemy could be watching).

 

[Mistwell]

This is possible assuming that you are still behind cover or concealment when the enemy approaches within 10 ft. As long as the enemy still cannot Spot you after moving within 10 ft. (due to your Hide check while still behind cover or concealment), then this scenario should work exactly as you describe as long as the enemy doesn't Spot you after you make a new Hide check when moving up to attack.

This also depends on whether you still have cover or concealment at the moment you attack. If you do not have cover or concealment, then you are unable to make a Hide check and get the benefit of catching the enemy flat-footed. As long as there is at least some cover or concealment between you and your enemy (like the corner of a wall), then you should be able to pull this off.

Not correct. According to the Complete Adventurer rules, you do NOT need cover or concealment at all times. You need to start hidden in such cover or concealment, but then you can move into open space at a penalty to try and sneak up and attack:

You can also use this option to sneak up on someone from a hiding place. For every 5 feet of open space between you and the target, you take a -5 penalty on your Hide check. If your Hide check succeeds, your target doesn't notice you until you attack or make some other attention-grabbing action. Such a target is treated as being flat-footed with respect to you.

The text in Complete Adventurer describing how an enemy still knows where abouts you went is there simply to tell you that the enemy could still target a 5 ft. square and attack it even though the enemy can't actually see anyone.

Minor correction, that part was text from the PHB.

The enemy of course would not overcome the benefit of the concealment or cover you're using, but the enemy could certainly try to attack the square to see if someone was there. The lesson to be learned from that is not to try and Hide somewhere that's limited to only a 5 ft. square (like Hiding in a barrel while an enemy could be watching).

I am simply arguing that it would be hard to assume flat footedness if the opponent knows what square you are in, and has a really good reason to believe you are going to whack them the moment you move by that square. I mean, if you run into a 5 x 5 closet, and your opponent sees you run into that closet and knows it has no other exit, then when the opponent moves up to that closet I think it would be difficult to assume that your hide check and cover provided by the closet allows you to attack your opponent as if they were flat footed.

 

[billd91]

I am simply arguing that it would be hard to assume flat footedness if the opponent knows what square you are in, and has a really good reason to believe you are going to whack them the moment you move by that square. I mean, if you run into a 5 x 5 closet, and your opponent sees you run into that closet and knows it has no other exit, then when the opponent moves up to that closet I think it would be difficult to assume that your hide check and cover provided by the closet allows you to attack your opponent as if they were flat footed.

Well, the designers at WotC are the ones who decided to call it flat-footedness rather than using the invisibility condition. I'd prefer to say that you lost your Dex bonus because you didn't see the attack coming rather than using the term flat-footed, but there you are...
It all comes from not having a condition defined for "hidden" laying out exactly what it means. That is what they should have done.