Can't get my head around the Hide skill

[RigaMortus2]

The part I really disagree with is, if you are being observed (even casually) you can not make a Hide check. Again, taking a pure RAW standpoint, this means a party of adventurers will never be able to Hide from monsters because they will in all likelyhood be "observing" each other. It should be more defined.

Perhaps you need a Hide & Move Silently target? So if you are being observed by the target, you can't hide. If not, then you can. You could choose to Hide against multiple targets as well. I just use the term "target" to state that you aren't trying to Hide against allies, just enemies.

 

[frankthedm]

Could you describe how such a hide check would function. Such as "Get behind total cover, then...."?

1. IF you are being observed, create a distraction so you can attemt to hide as the hide skill calls out.

If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check; see below), though, you can attempt to hide. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Hide check if you can get to a hiding place of some kind. (As a general guideline, the hiding place has to be within 1 foot per rank you have in Hide.) This check, however, is made at a -10 penalty because you have to move fast.

2. Remain in squares that grant concealment or cover. If you have a battlefield so clear that there are few places with that, you are SOL. I'd suggest using the 'shadowy light' of the parties torches or light spells, but sadly that does not work so well in the dungeon since way too many fragging monsters have darkvision :\ . Your best bet at lowish levels would be a darkness spell. Of course that turns off any and all sneak attack damage for those inside it due to concealment.

 

[werk]

All you really need is someone in between you and your spotter.

If it's enough cover to grant a penalty to attacks, it's enough cover to hide.

 

[frankthedm]

All you really need is someone in between you and your spotter.

If it's enough cover to grant a penalty to attacks, it's enough cover to hide.

No sadly, it is not.

Soft Cover
Creatures, even your enemies, can provide you with cover against ranged attacks, giving you a +4 bonus to AC. However, such soft cover provides no bonus on Reflex saves, nor does soft cover allow you to make a Hide check.

 

[werk]

No sadly, it is not.

:\ Oh well.

 

[frankthedm]

The part I really disagree with is, if you are being observed (even casually) you can not make a Hide check. Again, taking a pure RAW standpoint, this means a party of adventurers will never be able to Hide from monsters because they will in all likelyhood be "observing" each other. It should be more defined.

The way i think it was intended, You can still use Hide, your hide check just auto fails against the observers barring a distraction / breaking line of sight. You still roll a hide check against each person who might spot you.

 

[billd91]

Over 6 years since the arrival of 3e, and I still don't completely get how to mechanically apply the Hide skill. For example:

- How often is it rolled when a character is moving?

- What if I'm moving through shadows (with a normal move of 30), but stop every 50 feet and wait a minute. How often do I roll Hide?

When do you make the PC roll? Whenever it feels right to do so. You don't want to make them roll every round of movement. That takes too long. I make them roll when they initially hide and when they make a significant change in what they're doing while hiding (like moving at a different movement rate or attacking). Otherwise, I try to keep the pace moving without bogging down in rolling.

- If I'm being observed by person A, but not by person B, can I just use Hide against person B? (Logically yes, according ot the RAW, I have no idea).

Absolutely you can if you also have cover or concealment or some other ability that allows you to hide in plain sight if neither of those conditions is met.

- I can use Hide if I have cover. Makes sense. I assume I duck down or move behind the cover, and thus I can't be seen. But if that's all I have to do, why do I need Hide? Can't I just say "I duck behind the cover."

True, but it's not a very interesting case. Hiding is mostly for use when the character could potentially be seen, and you can't when behind full cover. You can, however, when you're peeking out from behind cover (having now only partial cover) or when concealed. That's when hiding becomes interesting and worth the die roll.

- I duck down behind a low wall during combat and Hide. There's nothing back there to hide me other than the low wall. An enemy walks behind the wall. Does he automatically see me, or does he have to roll Spot?

- Corollary to above question: I need cover or concealment to Hide, but do I need them to stay hidden?

Once he walks around the wall, you're out in the open and he doesn't need a spot to see you. That's why you still to hunt for cover or attacking just as he's coming around the corner. Ambushers don't wait until their hiding places are fully explored to make their attacks. Timing is important.

- Finally, if I Hide during combat, am I treated as being invisible towards the next person I use a melee attack against? At what point, if any, would the target of my attack receive a Spot check?

I treat attackers who successfully hid as invisible. The invisible condition is defined as being visually undetectable. When you have successfully beat someone's spot check, until conditions change, you are visually undetectable. It means, mostly, that you cause your opponent to lose their Dex bonus to AC which, in turn, make sneak attacking possible.
WotC, in Complete Adventurer I think, said that hiding attackers should treat their targets as flatfooted. It's a very similar end result, but one that I think blurs the definition of flat-footed more than the definition of invisible. So I still use my interpretation.

One interesting note: If you treat hidden as invisible, the hidden character cannot be targeted by AoO. If you treat hiding as causing your target to be flat-footed, if he has combat reflexes, he still has the power to AoO you... even if he can't see you... somehow.

 

[frankthedm]

I treat attackers who successfully hid as invisible. The invisible condition is defined as being visually undetectable. When you have successfully beat someone's spot check, until conditions change, you are visually undetectable.

Some of us say visually undetected. You have not yet been seen, but you can be seen, thus you don't reach invisibility’s "visually undetectable" standard. It might sound like a spliting of hairs and to some it is, but to others, it keeps hellacious hide bonuses from becoming improved invisibility.

 

[RigaMortus2]

You can still use Hide, your hide check just auto fails against the observers barring a distraction / breaking line of sight. You still roll a hide check against each person who might spot you.

Unless I am not understanding this correctly... You must follow certain criteria in order to Hide. If that criteria is met, you may then Hide. Once you Hide, you make a Hide check opposed by Spot checks from anyone who might be in a position to see you. So again, if I understand this correctly, if you can't meet the criteria in order to Hide in the first place, you never get to the point where you have to make a Hide check.

According to the skill:

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went.

If people (my allies are "people") are observing you (they are), even casually, you can't hide (I can't hide, not "you can't make a hide check").

Note: Just want to clairfy (incase it came across this way), I am not trying to be arguementative, I am just stating how I see this working under a pure RAW interpretation (in the specific case of trying to hide while being observed, even if it is your allies doing the observing).

 

[frankthedm]

Unless I am not understanding this correctly... You must follow certain criteria in order to Hide. If that criteria is met, you may then Hide. Once you Hide, you make a Hide check opposed by Spot checks from anyone who might be in a position to see you. So again, if I understand this correctly, if you can't meet the criteria in order to Hide in the first place, you never get to the point where you have to make a Hide check.

I ammended the quoted post.