Can't touch the PCs! What's a DM to Do?

[Eraslin]

Hello there,
If you want an encounter which'll likely give them a fair bit of hurt, and you can justify a mid/high level wizard and a few of his buddies wanting the party dead (even if it's just for their items).

What you'll need:
1 7 (or 8th) level wizard(conjurer)
4-5 fighters (lvl 4 or so)

Wizard has:
1 potion of haste
1 potion of flight
Improved invisibility spell prepared
If you want to be really nasty, then give him the silent spell feat (that way he'll make zero sound while casting his spells -- thereby giving the PCs no clues as to his location).

Fighters have:
Normal melee weapon
Longbow
Potion of invis.
Potion of haste
Potion of flight

If the PCs magical items are worth enough, then all the disposable items are definately justified; someone who wants their items wouldn't likely spend more to get them than their worth. Otherwise, the fighters require a minimum of the weapons and the potion of invis.

The combat is an ambush, in which everyone starts invisible, hasted, and flying. In the surprise round the wizard has a few choices, he/she can either hold person two fighters, or summon some critters around the spellcasters, or some combination of them both. The fighters ready actions to fire an arrow at the spellcasters if they try to cast a spell (each at different spellcasters to prevent all of the spell-cancelling hits from hitting the first spellcaster).

Then in subsequent rounds the wizard summons critters around the spellcasters as the fighters fire a full-attack's worth of arrows, and then ready an action to fire at a spellcaster.

With the PC fighters held, the PC casters shouldn't hold up long.

On the other hand, if you just want to whoop 'em, and not risk killing them all. Then you can make the wizard an evocation specialist (opposition school = conjuration) with the subdual substitution feat (T&B). Then the surprise round is a pair of very damaging area-effect subdual-damage spells (ice storm, fireball, etc). The massive subdual damage should knock the casters out cold right off the bat. Then do whatever you'd like with the PC fighters. Subdual damage magic missiles, subdual damage fireballs, shatter spells on their bows, etc. One note though, if you do go this route you may just want to give the NPC fighters some tanglefoot bags to snag the fighters. Just make sure the wizard has a protection from arrows spell cast, and perhaps an extra prepared in case that one gets widdled through. If you want to be really annoying, you can also cast a blink spell on the invisible NPC wizard.

Basically, just toss some enemies with considerable class levels at them. And play into their weaknesses. Heck, if you want to be really mean, if an NPC wizard notices any particular PC using a lot of potions then just have him cast an area-effect shatter on the PC -- it'll destroy all the potions.

I hope I've given you some ideas.

-Eraslin

 

[Wolfspider]

Don't forget to give monsters and enemy NPCs access to healing magic as well. What's good for the goose....

 

[Bonedagger]

This must be a troll.... Or a late 1 April joke.

 

[1StrangeFellow]

This could be a hoax, but I've seen DMs with worse problems so I'll take it at face value. Face it, just about anything on the internet could be a load of crap, but we're here to discuss and help each other so April Fool's joke, troll, gag or not for the sake of arguement one might as well just take it as real.

That said, it's time to start again. If you don't know what is on the character sheets, you haven't known for the past sixth levels, and you have a player that is overly protective of them they are hiding something. They are most likely cheating and it would be difficult to backtrack and find out where.

First, kill all of the PCs, but teach the players a lesson while you do it. Lure them into a dungeon with a legend of a cavern filled with magical springs that spout healing waters. I don't think this party would resist the temptation of free healing potions. Give them the chance to go out and spend a ton of money on empty flasks, skins, barrels - whatever their greedy hands can carry.

When they get to the dungeon, it is filled with evil foes that can use hit-and-run tactics. If they get hurt, they run, use a healing spring and come back at them. Here's the twist: the cavern was created by a god of healing for his followers, but has been corrupted by a rival god whose followers took the cavern and its healing springs over... it now only heals for the inhabitants of the cavern (or a certain alignment, or followers of that evil god, etc.) Now trap them inside (or get them lost) and watch as the enemies have unlimited healing and are out to stop the PCs from taking the magical fonts away from them.

Yes, it's mean. It's meant to be. As DM, you have lost control and the best way to reassert yourself as the game authority is to come down hard before you start over.

In the future, always at least have a copy of the character sheets and keep track of the characters' advancement. If the characters are not created with a 25 point-buy method, then run a couple of practice combats on your own using the player's common tactics and keep going until you find something that is really, appropriately challenging. Try to keep yourself around the recommended wealth level for characters of their level. Every once in a while, hit the characters with their own tactics or situations where their tactics don't work so that they have to get creative.


Edit - A few words on getting screwed:

Over the past week, I've had to deal with some fairly shady people and the best way to keep yourself from being taken advantage of is to let them know right off the bat that you don't like being screwed or deceived. Two of my so-called "best friends" thought they could be slick and lie to me, I called them on it right away. I made it clear that if it happened again they shouldn't bother coming around any more. I work in bars as a Karaoke DJ and you'd be surprised the things people try to do. On the minor side, someone stole a somewhat expensive pen and lighter from my table and then had the audacity to have it sit out in plain sight in front of me. I stared at them, then walked right up and said "Oh, did you find my things? Thank you." Took them back and walked away. I mentioned it to someone working in the bar... they got terrible service and quite a few dirty looks the rest of the night until they left. Later, an acquaintance thought he would be slick and get back on stage quicker by putting up a different name on the request slips every time and having different people hand them to me. We try to keep a strict rotation so everyone gets their turn. I got on the microphone after the first song he sang under a psuedonym and announced that there had been a change to the rotation, that this person was getting bumped to the very bottom of the pile, why this was happening, etc and then he wound up not getting back up for the rest of the night.

The point is that you could very well be getting taken advantage of in your situation as DM. If they won't let you have character sheets there is something they haven't wanted you to notice. You have to lay down the law - hard to prevent this from happening on a regular basis if you want to keep playing with these people. Lately I've gotten sick of people playing games and trying to be 'slick'. You have to put a stop to that kind of thing early on in a relationship - personal, professional or gaming.

Be firm with your players. If they are mature, they will accept it, concede your point and hopefully behave themselves in the future. If not, it's no big loss.

 

[Roland Delacroix]

Ok, i was gonna leave this thread alone but after that last post...

Everytime i've killed more than one PC (who was obviouslly being an idiot) the group has almost ended, or just broke up. Players get pissed and no longer trust the DM, noone will want to play with you. Just my experience, maybe your group will be different, but I would NOT suggest killing anyone much less the whole group. In fact i've lost friends over this, and i never targeted anyone thats just the way the dice came out.

On the other hand you have to know whats up in your party. I keep a copy of everyones sheet, and they give me a new one every time they level. This helps me design an adventure appropriate to thier strengths and weaknesses. They keep a more updated version themselves but they usually dont have that much more since i get a new updated sheet every 4-5 games. If they claim to have it and its not on mine i can usually remember 3-4 games back. Regardless, if its not on either mine or their sheet and i dont remember it, it never happened.

One thing i just started was a yahoo group that i post summaries of every game on, for players who miss that game and my records. The players can post on the group and have thier characters in a folder there so I can get to it. Whenever they level, or whatever, they just update the yahoo group character sheet. This makes it easy for me to know exactlly what everyone can do.

Again, unless you hate the people in your group and never want them as friends, don't kill them all.

 

[1StrangeFellow]

If you're afraid of losing the players, you could always give them an option: You can play using these characters one last time, or we can start over now. Tell them why. But I really wouldn't let them continue to use characters that have advanced six levels without any DM knowledge of the character's abilities. If you don't know their stats well enough to challenge them, you don't know what they have changed or tweaked on their character sheets.

That's a problem. As long as they continue to play those characters, and you can't prove a thing, they will always have the idea that they have pulled something over on the DM. That's not an ideal gaming environment. The temptation will be there to try to do other things to gain an unfair advantage.

If you did 'kill all the PCs', I would certainly explain why after the fact and ask them if they wouldn't rather play in a campaign where they can actually be challenged (although if they have been playing for two levels straight without any challenges and don't seem to have a problem with it then it seems they are only interested in loot and experience, and not the actual process of roleplaying, anyway. You might as well just make them 20th level and let them start pursuing godhood.)

 

[reiella]

Potion trouble?

Nightshade or similiar type monster. Only trouble is their relatively high CR.

Possibly consider something similiar or using a partial interaction.

Could just descale a nightwing down to medium size and (reverse engineer the errata'd MM cr adjustments for advancement by size) and kill off a couple feats as appropiate.

 

[reapersaurus]

Chrisakaballa - in the back of my mind, i'm thinking i remember you as being in high school, and a young DM in charge of other high schoolers?

If that's not the case, could you describe what your players are, and the age ranges, etc?
It'll help people to put the scenario in context.

 

[Bonedagger]

Oh well... If you are indeed serious I will give an advice (Not that seriousness is a criteria ).

If you don't like the way the game is being played, and I assume that is the case since you posted this, you must be prepared for some changes to have fun.

A) As said earlier you need to have a certain amount of authority. You are doing most of the work and therefore you set the rules for the game. If people agree to play your game they know what the rules are (It is almost as if you have been selected to be presidente ....I said almost. This is where the democratic proces takes place) If someone tries to 'argue' your rules later on by cheating, strike hard. They are ruining the fun you have prepared for the rest of the groupe.... You are therefore acting on behalf of the other players. It is you responsebility

B) If you for some reason do not wish to take charge of you game (You said something abiut your friends taking the game personally) then thats also ok. It's about having fun. And if this is the way you and your friends have fun then that's cool. The game will most likely be very.. uhm.. It really sounds like your problem is not with the D&D but with your friends..... Sounds like they don't trust that you can do the job. Do not allow there to any gray zones in this matter.

Hoped some of it helped.

 

[MaxKaladin]

Neutralize Poison is 3rd level for Druids. I know because I play one and I make a point of keeping one or two on hand whenever possible "just in case".

For this party, a good encounter with "Tucker's Kobolds" sounds like a good idea.

In general, put opponents with missile weapons in hard to reach placer. If the party has lots of ranged weapons and spells, put them up against people who use traps and things like murderholes instead of directly attacking....