Casting in the Dark- kind of long

[beldar1215]

Ok here's the situation;
Our party has been traveling only at night and has run into a number of goblins. We have seen the goblins and they have seen us and run off. Our spell caster decided to throw a fireball at them as they were running. I was determined that the goblins were within range, but that the spell caster could not see them. We are in a lightly wooded forest. The person playing the spellcaster says that if he knows about where they are that he can throw the fireball and get it to land where he wants it to. The DM on the only hand says that because he can't see more than 60 feet, the fireball will land in a random spot.

So here's the question: When casting a spell like fireball or Magic Missile, do you have to be able to see the target, or can you say I want the fireball to go 150 ft and explode?

I hope I explained this well enough. Any help with this wouild be great, so that the two people involed can quit argueing about this!!!

Beldar

 

[Storyteller01]

From what I've seen on this board, you have to see a target to hit it with magic missle. Fireball I'm not so sure about. I think you can cast blindly with this spell.

I'd probably determine where the buggers are, and give those that were hit a bonus to their Ref save. If you can't see them, you can't judge speed, direction, etc. But a 40 ft blast adjusted from where you last saw them is bound to it something, if only to let the heat singe some eyebrows.

 

[Staffan]

With targeted spells (like magic missile), you must have a line of effect to the target, and you must be able to see or touch it. With area spells, you only need line of effect to the starting point, and not line of sight. However, you'd need to make a pretty good Listen roll or something like that to know exactly where the goblins are in order to know where to place the fireball for maximum effect (and don't forget the penalty for distance).

 

[Silveras]

Fireball specifically says you pick the direction, height, and distance where you want the spell to go off, so that part is easy.

As Staffan mentioned, for area spells, you only need to have Line of Effect to the target point, not to any specific creature within the area, and you do not need Line of Sight.

HOWEVER, the forest complicates matters. If the "pea" launched by fireball (see the spell description) struck a tree on the way to the target location, THAT is where the fireball goes off. For that reason, firing into the dark forest has a good chance of the fireball going off someplace other than where you want it to (depending on lighting, etc.).

Had there been no trees, your DM's decision that the location would be random would have to be a house ruling, different from the rules as written.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Fireball specifically says you pick the direction, height, and distance where you want the spell to go off, so that part is easy.

As Staffan mentioned, for area spells, you only need to have Line of Effect to the target point, not to any specific creature within the area, and you do not need Line of Sight.

HOWEVER, the forest complicates matters. If the "pea" launched by fireball (see the spell description) struck a tree on the way to the target location, THAT is where the fireball goes off. For that reason, firing into the dark forest has a good chance of the fireball going off someplace other than where you want it to (depending on lighting, etc.).

Had there been no trees, your DM's decision that the location would be random would have to be a house ruling, different from the rules as written.

100% correct.

Were I the DM, I'd allow the player to specify how far he wanted to target the fireball. Then I'd determine a percentage chance that the fireball hits a tree, per 20' of distance travelled in the dark. Then I'd roll that percentage once or several times, depending on how much farther than his line of sight the spellcaster shot the fireball.

Then, of course, I'd have to determine whether or not there were any goblins there. I generally have goblins scatter when retreating, so they wouldn't all be in a nice clump in any particular direction. I'd assume there'd be a few goblins in the fireball's AoE, assuming that the spellcaster accurately guessed or knew how fast goblins can run, correctly gauged the distance he'd need to shoot his fireball, and the fireball didn't hit a tree before it reached the desired destination.

Whew!

 

[winterwolf]

And if nothing else...the area should now be well lit