Catching on fire rules ... contradictions?

[Malin Genie]

The Catching on FIre section in the DMG (p86) suggests that characters exposed to "burning oil, bonfires, and noninstantaneous magic fires such as wall of fire might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire....are allowed a Reflex saving throw (DC 15) to avoid this fate. If a character's clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saing throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out....rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus."

Now, alchemist's fire, in the PHB (p113), deals 1d6 damage on a direct hit. Them "On the round following a direct hit, the target takes an additional 1d6 points of damage. The target can take a full-round action to attempt to extinguish the flames before taking this additional damage. It takes a successful Reflex saving throw (DC 15) to extinguish the flames. Rolling on the ground allows the character a +2 bonus."

The rules for alchemist's fire seem different from catching on fire. It only lasts one round, you only get a save if you take a full-round action, and rolling etc only gives +2, not +4.

But then, burning oil (which is specifically mentioned in the DMG passage) is described (PHB 109) as "Use the rules for alchemist's fire."

So my current interpretation is that, if hit by alchmist's fire

Take 1d6 damage.
You can use your next round to exinguish the alchemist's fire.
- If you succeed, there is no more damage at all, as the fire is completely extinguished.
- If you don't try, or fail, the alchemist's fire is still burning. You take 1d6 damage.
- The alchemists fire then stops burning, as it only burns for one round.
- However, you yourself might be 'on fire' as you have been exposed to a source capable of setting things on fire
- On your round, you can use your action (on your round) to smother/roll granting a Reflex save (DC 15) at +4
- If you don't try, or fail, then at the initiative when you werre hit by the fire make a Reflex save DC 15. If you fail, you are 'on fire,' take 1d6 damage and repeat the process each round, taking damage each round until you save.

Is that a correct interpretation? How do other DMs adjudicate oil/alchemist's fire/etc.?

Further questions (for those who haven't given up already at the length of the post )

Burning Hands has the following passage: "Flammable materials such as cloth, paper, parchment and thin wood burn if the flames touch them. A character can extinguish burning items as a full-round action."

So if a character is wearing clothing and is hit by a burning hands, do they potentially catch on fire or does it only apply to 'unattended items'?

Whatabout the 'Flaming Normal Projectiles' version of flame arrow (which states "The flaming projectiles can easily ignite flammable materials or structures.")?

What about incendiary cloud?

 

[ThomasBJJ]

well, I think you stay on fire until you make the successful reflex save (from alchemist fire). What I can't figure out is the difference between Alchemist's Fire and regular old burning oil. Can someone give me a PHB or DMG page #?

Maybe the difference is Burning oil only lasts 1 round, and only damages on the round following ignition, where as Alch. Fire deals damage on the round it hits and lasts until extinguished.

 

[Magus_Jerel]

So my current interpretation is that, if hit by alchmist's fire

Take 1d6 damage.
You can use your next round to exinguish the alchemist's fire.
- If you succeed, there is no more damage at all, as the fire is completely extinguished.
- If you don't try, or fail, the alchemist's fire is still burning. You take 1d6 damage.

correct

- The alchemists fire then stops burning, as it only burns for one round.

Nope - it burns until extinguished by you or someone else.

- However, you yourself might be 'on fire' as you have been exposed to a source capable of setting things on fire

okie - and this requires that you have failed some type of save or hit with a special attack. You take 1d6 here; and are considered to be on fire.

- If you don't try, or fail, then at the initiative when you werre hit by the fire make a Reflex save DC 15. If you fail, you are 'on fire,' take 1d6 damage and repeat the process each round, taking damage each round until you save. - On your round, you can use your action (on your round) to smother/roll granting a Reflex save (DC 15) at +4

ummmm - you make the save on your initiative if you chose to take the full round action to extinguish yourself. and you are already on fire. Choosing to roll around (and thus be prone) grants a +4 - and may be taken as part of the "extinguish self" action.


The REAL difference beteween Alchemist's fire and oil is a picece of cake.

Vials of Alchemical fire are designed to be thrown - and ignite on impact. Containers of burning oil must be lit - and THEN thrown - meaning it takes longer to use such flasks in the heat of combat.

Making the vial is a matter of filling a container with oil and some sort of compound that would make the oil ignite on contact with air - without being exposed TO the air, a procedure that might be difficult.

 

[Gromm]

well, I think you stay on fire until you make the successful reflex save (from alchemist fire). What I can't figure out is the difference between Alchemist's Fire and regular old burning oil. Can someone give me a PHB or DMG page #?

Maybe the difference is Burning oil only lasts 1 round, and only damages on the round following ignition, where as Alch. Fire deals damage on the round it hits and lasts until extinguished.

The difference is that nature of the substance, not how it works. Alchemists fire (ie Greek Fire), ignites on contact with air, oil has to be lit. So throwing a flask of oil at someone covers them in oil until you light them up with fire of some sort. Alchemists fire ignites once the vial breaks and splashes them with the liquid.

As far as saves, the difference is simple. If you are near a fire or what have you can move fast enough or carefully enough to avoid catching flame (hence the save), with alchemists fire the touch attack results in flaming oil being on your body. No amount of quick or careful movement can stop a liquid already on fire on your body from starting you on fire; its already happened.

 

[TabulaRasa]

more fire...

Ok. I have another related question.
What if you cast an alchemist’s fire on an unconscious troll?
An unconscious creature always fails his ref-save. So the troll will burn until death from just one flask of alchemist’s fire?

 

[AGGEMAM]

Re: more fire...

Ok. I have another related question.
What if you cast an alchemist’s fire on an unconscious troll?
An unconscious creature always fails his ref-save. So the troll will burn until death from just one flask of alchemist’s fire?

Actually no!

(But we forgot that it burns the next round, as well, again at twice damage, somebody should have reminded me!)

 

[Malin Genie]

Still confused....

Hmmm...

so is the consensus that 'if you are hit by alchemist's fire, you are automatically on fire, and the reference to taking 1d6 damage the next round is just part of 'being on fire' (not referring specifically to one round of extra damage)'?

In that case, what do you do about the discrepancy between the +2 and +4 bonuses, and the need to take a full-round action to save vs automatically being granted a save each round?

That is, as far as I can tell, in the DMG rules for catching on fire it suggests that you make a Ref save DC 15 each round and take 1d6 if you fail. It doesn't say you need to take an 'extinguish self' action - indeed it says that if you specifically take your action to extinguish yourself you are granted an extra saving throw.

But in the alchemist's fire rules it says that you require a full-round action to attempt to extinguish the flames before taking the extra damage.

BTW, the rules for burning oil are in PHB p109 (at least in my edition.) "Use the rules for alchemist's fire, except that it takes a full-round action to prepare a flask with a fuse. Once it is thrown, there is only a 50% chance that the fire ignites successfully.'

 

[Magus_Jerel]

Ok. I have another related question.
What if you cast an alchemist’s fire on an unconscious troll?
An unconscious creature always fails his ref-save. So the troll will burn until death from just one flask of alchemist’s fire?

yeppers - if the troll doesn't manage to regenerate the damage you probably inflicted upon him to subdue his ugly butt - he won't have a chance to "wake up" and extinguish himself.

so is the consensus that 'if you are hit by alchemist's fire, you are automatically on fire, and the reference to taking 1d6 damage the next round is just part of 'being on fire' (not referring specifically to one round of extra damage)'?

yep - reminder text

In that case, what do you do about the discrepancy between the +2 and +4 bonuses, and the need to take a full-round action to save vs automatically being granted a save each round?

That is as clear as mud!

I would award the +2 circumstance modifier for rolling on the ground - and an additional +2 if you had a friend who was using a heavy cloak or the like to "smother" it - from the aid another action. This would explain the "another save at +4" text from the DMG.

Getting help from a friend allows TWO saves each round (thus the "an extra" part of that wording) - one with the aid another bouns and one without that bonus. The first occurs on your action - the second on the aiding character's initiative.

Failure to even attempt to extinguish the flames is to forefit the reflex save you may be allowed to take, thus you could "fight on" despite being on fire, but that isn't likely given the usual character.

 

[Gromm]

Re: more fire...

Ok. I have another related question.
What if you cast an alchemist’s fire on an unconscious troll?
An unconscious creature always fails his ref-save. So the troll will burn until death from just one flask of alchemist’s fire?

Usually. It depends how much subdual damage it has on it.
It heals 5 subdual a round and takes 1d6 damage a round.
If it manages to get rid of the subdual damage before it runs out of hps it can get up and extinguish itself and keep fighting.
Other wise it dies.

Normally we just beat it for a few rounds and then alch it and the DM calls it good. Or 2 vials of alch fires is generally considered good enough since the avg damage is higher than the regeneration.

 

[Conaill]

Re: Re: more fire...

(But we forgot that it burns the next round, as well, again at twice damage, somebody should have reminded me!)

Twice damage? You mean it takes 2d6 damage on the second round?

Help!