Ulorian - Agent of Chaos
Legend
Or uses a close or area attack on you and your buddies at -2 only. Kind of a waste of a feat, in my opinion.
Cha-Based Paladin
- Thread starter Sarck
- Start date
I'm sorry, but I think that's rather taken out of context. That's referring to powers you get from leveling up, while powers the Paladin gets in this case are from feats and racial abilities. This is probably another example of this edition's "Few rules, many exceptions" bit.
See, it's really all about moving to the correct area and having more options in combat. Being able to hit from on long range isn't a big thing for this character, as his major power lies in close-range things. Eyebite is admittedly not fantastic, but it's not supposed to be; It's just interesting. I won't waste it on people who have area or close attacks unless I'm in an area where they'd only be able to hit me and would thus waste the attack (especially if it's an encounter or recharge ability).
From my time as a wizard I learned that doing x amount of damage from y distance gets very quickly boring, while doing x status effect on y creature if I am in z square with u people around me makes the entire tactical situation much more interesting and thusly much more entertaining.
I hadn't even thought about Paragon multiclassing, mainly because my abilities so far are geared towards healing and conditional effects, but it's definitely worth the thought. However, the loss of paragon path features that say, the Hospitaler offers mean it's unlikely that I'll do that.
It's fine on my sheet, I just typed it in wrong. Silly me
Also, on the point that this character requires that many implements: I think I'll just ignore it for the moment, but once it's really a problem I guess we'll be having the wizard transform gold into magical implements for me, haha. I'm more focusing on defense, though, so it might not even come up that I need anything other than maybe a Holy Avenger.
Not exactly sure how often that's going to happen...I've gotten to go and I both moved my speed and attacked.
They're marked(-2) and they're psychic locked(-2) - they've got a -4 to attack anyone unless they include me in the attack - and after I've done it, I'm not going to be near my fellow party members.
Ulorian - Agent of Chaos
Legend
You've got to be within a move action's worth of squares or your Divine Challenge will expire and you won't be able to use it on your next turn. You could be a double move away from the target of your Eyebite, but then you'd have to spend a turn doing nothing but moving in order to preserve your challenge, which is a bad plan. Also, you're not invisible to the target's allies, so you have to move in such a way as to avoid OA and not end up adjacent to another enemy (which will prevent you from maintaining your Divine Challenge unless: 1) you take an OA to get back to your target 2) you hit him with one of the few Paladin ranged attacks... but your Divine Challenge will expire as soon as you run out of those 3) one of your allies burns one of their powers to push your newly adjacent enemy away from you). Unless it's a very unusual setup, you'll probably be close enough to an ally to be within range of a close or area attack. Even if you're not, there's nothing stopping the target from blasting you with that close or area attack.
Of course, if the target doesn't have a close or area attack, you're good. Another thing to keep in mind is that you've had to spend a feat in order to make this single encounter tactic work.
I suggest you reread Divine Challenge - that's not the requirement of Divine Challenge, that's one of the either/or. The other option is to attack the target.
At 11th, the character has 3 per encounter warlock powers. If you're doing my build, it has Eyebite at will and 4 per encounter warlock powers at 11th. Attacking the target at range is easy enough and that fulfills the requirements of Divine Challenge to not expire.
But more importantly, that's not a big deal in any case - the point is to get away from the party to avoid area attack problems on them, not away from the target. If the target is going to waste an area attack on just my Paladin while at a -2, that's great. Personally, I'm hoping to move just past the target(without provoking) to set up the party melee weapon for combat advantage.
Ulorian - Agent of Chaos
Legend
Yes, I'm aware of that. The OP's build is very limited in terms of ranged attacks, so attacking from range wasn't worth mentioning as an option.
Ah... you're talking about your build, while I was discussing the OP's build. Let me read yours before I comment further.
My point is I don't think your ideal scenario (keeping your allies out of close/area attack range) is as easy to set up as you think it is.
Also, consider these potential weaknesses in your build: 1) you have poor OA ability, which isn't good for a defender 2) almost all of your powers are short-range attacks, with only a single at-will and encounter melee power at 11th level, which is also a sub-par choice for a defender, and switching between melee and ranged makes you vulnerable to OAs 3) you've burned almost all of your feats on multiclassing 4) you've chosen the sub-par paragon multi-classing over a paragon path (i.e. you're gving up the two 11th level path features and one 16th level path feature for the ability to swap out an at-will power) 5) Lay on Hands requires you to be adjacent to your allies, which is going against the ranged attacker role your build seems to be taking on.
Don't get me wrong, it's a very flavourful build, but I'm curious to see how it plays in an actual game.
I don't think those things end up ultimately being weaknesses(at least not compared to the strengths)
1) If they choose to ignore me, I ought to do around 1d8+11 at 1st level and the target is likely at -4 to hit due to Enfeebling Strike. I still get the opportunity attack, even if my odds aren't good. Slightly worse than the typical paladin, but...I don't think they're ignoring me.
2) My attack range is typical for a Warlock. Eyebite, Hellish Rebuke, Dire Radiance, Curse of the Black Frost, and Mire the Mind are all range of 10. At low levels, this can be Dire Radiance and then position myself in a place where it is impossible to move towards the party without also moving towards me. That can easily be 22 hp of damage in a round on average at 1st level.
3) Yes, but I'm also a high AC/Defense/hit point/14 healing surge character who does actual melee/close range damage. Which is to say, I want to open up with a ranged encounter and then move up rather than move up and melee encounter - this gives me flexibility. Mire the Mind is great for this as it will make the entire party invisible to the target, psychic lock the opponent, *and* let me move up to someone else while the strikers take 'em out the original target.
4) I don't think this ends up being that huge of a disadvantage in LFR - the characters that pick paragon paths are stuck with the powers they get from them. Given 1-3 years of power creep, I bet the Warlock powers I get from them will eventually be significantly better. Granted, the paragon paths are generally better, but it is hard to do what this guy is doing - being able to consistently smack people at range or in melee without sacrificing defenses or hit points. At higher levels, being able to mark and then attack flying creatures should be worth a lot.
A big hidden advantage for the build is that he's really only going to need one implement, his pact blade. He avoids paying up for 2 implements like most paladins have to do, by using those feats to minimize it.
5) Lay on Hands - the guy's a melee character primarily - his only real limitation here is that he's a 12 Wis Paladin.
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I'm interested to see how it plays out myself.
Ulorian - Agent of Chaos
Legend
I think that basing your build on the gamble that WotC will make design errors in future supplements which will increase the relative power level of Warlock powers is dangerous to say the least.
Under RAW, your build will require two implements, a holy symbol and your pact blade. How is this going to happen? You mention in your WotC thread that "it seems likely" that a workaround for the holy symbol implement requirement for all (but one) of the Paladin Charisma-based daily powers will appear in the next few years. Why would you assume this?
How is he primarily a melee character? You have one melee at-will and one melee encounter power (whose side benefit is based on Wisdom, which is a weak point for you).
I didn't notice your low Wisdom when listing the weaknesses of this build. Many of a Paladin's powers (as well as Lay on Hands) have a secondary benefit which is Wisdom-dependent; your low Wisdom is really crippling you here.
Hope it works out!
By the way, your build lists only 3 encounter powers at 11th level. You are entitled to 4.
generalhenry
First Post
While it is indeed out of context. The intention is quite clear. No doubling up on powers.
You are right, there is no specific rule about this. And I don't think the designers should have written one in the the book. It's a weird little exception.
But I don't think that excepts it from following the basic design of the game. zero, one or infinite.
It's a power that's originally /designed/ to be used multiple times. I can see no way that this will affect the game balance and since it is not actually against the rules, the only reason /not/ to allow the (twice per encounter) multiple use of a power gained through two different venues which have absolutely no mention of it being against the rules to use for this purpose is... because you say so?
Nevertheless, it has affected the game I play in with little to no damage to balance, and it really is more of a DM choice as RAI is a very subjective area in D&D. If my DM were to have a problem with it, I could easily change, but as I see no reason to, I do not plan to. If you can explain how this doubling up is terrible for the game and should be stricken out, I will gladly acquiesce and change my character appropriately. Otherwise, meh. Not in RAW, doesn't conflict with the game, then doesn't matter.
