Challenging Challenge Ratings...again

Adslahnit said:
You're doing it wrong, since 33 and 52 are simply the ECLs. To find the CR, you take 2/3rds of the ECL, so a Balor would be CR 22 and a Great Wyrm White Dragon would be CR 34.66 (CR 34 or 35 depending on how you round it).

Keep in mind that in v6, the Silver Rule takes a flat 5/6ths of the monster's Golden Rule ECL, regardless of how high said ECL is. So a Balor would be ECL 36 (Golden Rule) => ECL 30 (Silver Rule) => CR 20. A Great Wyrm White Dragon would be ECL 55 (Golden Rule) => ECL 45.83 (Silver Rule) => CR 30.55 (CR 31/32)

True, I'm doing it wrong per v6, but right per v5. However, in v6, the CR now means that a party of four adventurers at that level are going to have a tough encounter rather than an easy one (re-definition of CR--in v6 ECL means what CR normally means, and in v6 CR basically means 2/3 of what people normally mean by CR).

A well-balanced party of level 30 adventurers would find a single Balor to be a speed bump, not tough encounter, in my experience (unless the Balor's Hit Dice were advanced, of course).

But I would also challenge the v6 ECL of the Balor. WOTC would have you believe that a Balor is an equal challenge as a level 20 character with PC wealth. I believe that's a little too low, but it's closer than 30--I would suggest that a level 30 character with PC wealth would be significantly more challenging to a party than a Balor.

Edit:

For clarification, Adslahnit correctly pointed out an error I made--a CR 20, ECL 30 Balor in v6 would be a moderate challenge to a level 30 party--not tough. However, in spite of this error, my point is that I believe that a Balor is less challenging than a v6 CR20/ECL 30 would indicate.
 
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JuzamDjinn said:
True, I'm doing wrong per v6, but right per v5. However, in v6, the CR now means that a party of four adventures at that level are going to have a tough encounter rather than an easy one. A well-balanced party of level 30 adventures would find a single Balor to be a speed bump, not tough encounter, in my experience (unless the Balor's Hit Dice were advanced, of course).

Under v6 of the CR/ECL/EL system, which can partially be found here...:
www.immortalshandbook.com/sermon3.htm
www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff18.htm

A single Balor would be:
An EL +9 Impossible encounter (1.5625% victory chance) for 4-5 ECL 10 characters.
An EL +6 Dangerous encounter (18% victory change) for 4-5 ECL 15 characters.
An EL +3 Tough encounter (90% victory chance) for 4-5 ECL 20 characters.
An EL +/- 0 Moderate/Easy encounter (96.8% victory chance) for 4-5 ECL 30 characters.
An EL -3 Easy encounter (99.2% victory chance) for 4-5 ECL 45 characters.
An EL -6 Very Easy encounter (99.95% victory chance) for 4-5 ECL 60 characters.
An EL -9 Irrelevant encounter (99.99375% victory chance) for 4-5 ECL 90 characters, so you can throw a hundred Balors at them and they'll still have a flawless victory.
 
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True, I did get a little confused (which is part of the problem with v6 :) ) in that the Balor would be a moderate (easy) encounter in v6 to the level 30 party, not tough. But I think that a Balor is not as tough a challenge as a level 30 character with PC wealth would be.

Let me put it this way, Adslahnit, in my opinion, a Balor would be significantly less challenging to a level 30 party than a level 30 human character with PC wealth would be. The level 30 human character would be a moderate (easy) challenge to the party, but the Balor would even easier, since the Balor would be, in my opinion, about an ECL 22 or 23 in v6 parlance.

And there's no way that a white great wyrm is as challenging to a party as a level 46 NPC with PC wealth would be.
 
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JuzamDjinn said:
• Challenge Rating is 1/2 Average Party Level = Encounter Level -3 = Easy
• Challenge Rating is 2/3 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +/-0 = Moderate
• Challenge Rating is x1 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +3 = Tough
• Challenge Rating is x1.5 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +6 = Very Tough
• Challenge Rating is x2 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +9 = Impossible

I should also add that the given EL tables tend to diverge from this setup. The tables seem to use the following formula:

• ECL is 1/3 Party Level or CR is 2/9 Party Level = EL -9 = Irrelevant = 99.99375% chance of party victory
• ECL is 1/2 Party Level or CR is 1/3 Party Level = EL -6 = Very Easy = 99.95% chance of party victory
• ECL is 2/3 Party Level or CR is 4/9 Party Level = EL -3 = Easy = 99.6% chance of party victory
• ECL is Party Level or CR is 2/3 Party Level = EL +/- 0 = Moderate = 96.8% chance of party victory
• ECL is 1.5x Party Level or CR is Party Level = EL +3 = Tough = 75-87.5% (81%) chance of party victory
• ECL is 2x Party Level or CR is 4/3 Party Level = EL +6 = Difficult = 12.5-25% (18%) chance of party victory
• ECL is 3x Party Level or CR is 2x Party Level = EL +9 = Impossible = 1.5625% chance of party victory
 

Adslahnit said:
I should also add that the given EL tables tend to diverge from this setup. The tables seem to use the following formula:

• ECL is 1/3 Party Level or CR is 2/9 Party Level = EL -9 = Irrelevant = 99.99375% chance of party victory
• ECL is 1/2 Party Level or CR is 1/3 Party Level = EL -6 = Very Easy = 99.95% chance of party victory
• ECL is 2/3 Party Level or CR is 4/9 Party Level = EL -3 = Easy = 99.6% chance of party victory
• ECL is Party Level or CR is 2/3 Party Level = EL +/- 0 = Moderate = 96.8% chance of party victory
• ECL is 1.5x Party Level or CR is Party Level = EL +3 = Tough = 75-87.5% (81%) chance of party victory
• ECL is 2x Party Level or CR is 4/3 Party Level = EL +6 = Difficult = 12.5-25% (18%) chance of party victory
• ECL is 3x Party Level or CR is 2x Party Level = EL +9 = Impossible = 1.5625% chance of party victory

Actually, I think the table is the same as the set up. It looked different when you first pointed it out. But, you said, "ECL is Party Level or CR is 2/3 Party Level = EL +/- 0 = Moderate = 96.8% chance of party victory". So CR is 2/3*av. party level is moderate, that's the same as "Challenge Rating is 2/3 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +/-0 = Moderate." Similarly, you said, "ECL is 1.5x Party Level or CR is Party Level = EL +3 = Tough = 75-87.5% (81%) chance of party victory" So, CR is 1*av. party level is tough, that's the same as "Challenge Rating is x1 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +3 = Tough".
 

JuzamDjinn said:
Actually, I think the table is the same as the set up. It looked different when you first pointed it out. But, you said, "ECL is Party Level or CR is 2/3 Party Level = EL +/- 0 = Moderate = 96.8% chance of party victory". So CR is 2/3*av. party level is moderate, that's the same as "Challenge Rating is 2/3 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +/-0 = Moderate." Similarly, you said, "ECL is 1.5x Party Level or CR is Party Level = EL +3 = Tough = 75-87.5% (81%) chance of party victory" So, CR is 1*av. party level is tough, that's the same as "Challenge Rating is x1 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +3 = Tough".

There are, in fact, a couple discrepancies in the formulas and the tables:

• "Challenge Rating is 1/2 Average Party Level = Encounter Level -3 = Easy"
The table defines an EL -3 encounter as "CR is 4/9 Party Level", and EL -6 as "CR is 1/2 Party Level".

• "Challenge Rating is x1.5 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +6 = Very Tough"
The table defines an EL +6 encounter as "CR is 4/3 Party Level".

So, U_K, what's it going to be for v6? The formulas listed down in "Solution to Problem #2" in Sermon 3 or the formulas in the example encounter spreads for 30th-level and 100th-level parties?
 

Adslahnit said:
There are, in fact, a couple discrepancies in the formulas and the tables:

• "Challenge Rating is 1/2 Average Party Level = Encounter Level -3 = Easy"
The table defines an EL -3 encounter as "CR is 4/9 Party Level", and EL -6 as "CR is 1/2 Party Level".

• "Challenge Rating is x1.5 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +6 = Very Tough"
The table defines an EL +6 encounter as "CR is 4/3 Party Level".

So, U_K, what's it going to be for v6? The formulas listed down in "Solution to Problem #2" in Sermon 3 or the formulas in the example encounter spreads for 30th-level and 100th-level parties?

The discrepancies are because 4/3 and 1.5 are actually estimations in both cases. U_K is using CR*2=EL+6. This means that EL+3=CR*(2^.5). In other words, EL+3 is CR times the square root of two, where the square root of 2 is 1.4142, or about 1.4 which is probably close enough. The problem is that U_K in one point has estimated the sqaure root of 2 about about 4/3 (1.3333), and at one point as 1.5. Using about 1.4, it would be corrected as follows:

• ECL is .35 Party Level or CR is .23 Party Level = EL -9 = Irrelevant = 99.99375% chance of party victory
• ECL is 1/2 Party Level or CR is 1/3 Party Level = EL -6 = Very Easy = 99.95% chance of party victory
• ECL is 7/10 Party Level or CR is .47 Party Level = EL -3 = Easy = 99.6% chance of party victory
• ECL is Party Level or CR is 2/3 Party Level = EL +/- 0 = Moderate = 96.8% chance of party victory
• ECL is 1.4x Party Level or CR is 19/20 Party Level = EL +3 = Tough = 75-87.5% (81%) chance of party victory
• ECL is 2x Party Level or CR is 4/3 Party Level = EL +6 = Difficult = 12.5-25% (18%) chance of party victory
• ECL is 2.8x Party Level or CR is 1.9x Party Level = EL +9 = Impossible = 1.5625% chance of party victory

As you can see, the numbers don't work out quite as cleanly for EL+3 as they do for EL+6, so U_K is using an estimate--but a slightly different estimate in the two examples you gave.

Also, any given EL represents a *range* of CRs, so the best approach is probably just to look at a table to determine the EL, and from there compare the EL to the average party level. U_K has a table for v5, but it would have to be changed for v6.
 
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Adslahnit said:
I should also add that the given EL tables tend to diverge from this setup. The tables seem to use the following formula:

• ECL is 1/3 Party Level or CR is 2/9 Party Level = EL -9 = Irrelevant = 99.99375% chance of party victory
• ECL is 1/2 Party Level or CR is 1/3 Party Level = EL -6 = Very Easy = 99.95% chance of party victory
• ECL is 2/3 Party Level or CR is 4/9 Party Level = EL -3 = Easy = 99.6% chance of party victory
• ECL is Party Level or CR is 2/3 Party Level = EL +/- 0 = Moderate = 96.8% chance of party victory
• ECL is 1.5x Party Level or CR is Party Level = EL +3 = Tough = 75-87.5% (81%) chance of party victory
• ECL is 2x Party Level or CR is 4/3 Party Level = EL +6 = Difficult = 12.5-25% (18%) chance of party victory
• ECL is 3x Party Level or CR is 2x Party Level = EL +9 = Impossible = 1.5625% chance of party victory

I assumed that were quoting this from somewhere, but actually I think this is your extrapolation from the table. Actually, I don't think U_K used the table you gave above, but used a more mathematically correct approach. Another thing is that, U_K rounds EL down, so it is not necessarily easy to tell exactly what forumula he used based on the table.
 

Howdy JuzamDjinn! :)

Apologies for taking so long to reply.

JuzamDjinn said:
True, I did get a little confused (which is part of the problem with v6 :) ) in that the Balor would be a moderate (easy) encounter in v6 to the level 30 party, not tough.

There is always going to be an underlying confusion over this Challenge Rating business as far as I can see, simply because the WotC stuff is so ingrained in us that even if I change something you subconsciously go back to thinking that way.

Roll on 4th Edition with its infinitely superior CR system...since its basically what I was trying to do, only vastly simplified (because they don't need to revise their own stuff).

Basically (if my educated guess is correct) 4th Edition has a parallel between PCs and Elite Monsters. An elite monster is worth 2 standard monsters of the same level.

Therefore when they say that one standard monster of the same level (as the PCs) per PC is a good challenge, it means the party is fighting a group roughly half as powerful as themselves.

So if 5 elite monsters would be a 50/50 challenge I think we can assume 5 standard monsters will be a 75/25 challenge. Which, unless I am mistaken is about twice as difficult as a same CR encounter (moderate) in 3rd Edition. That means WotC are aiming for a tough encounter as the standard difficulty.

JuzamDjinn said:
But I think that a Balor is not as tough a challenge as a level 30 character with PC wealth would be.

Probably depends on the class.

What I noticed from the Revised Core Classes I posted on my website a few months back, was the massive discrepancy between certain classes. In fact it was even greater than I had outlined in v5 (because of a mistake I made in calculating attacks/damage).

In some cases that discrepancy is about 40% or more.

Let me put it this way, Adslahnit, in my opinion, a Balor would be significantly less challenging to a level 30 party than a level 30 human character with PC wealth would be. The level 30 human character would be a moderate (easy) challenge to the party, but the Balor would even easier, since the Balor would be, in my opinion, about an ECL 22 or 23 in v6 parlance.

And there's no way that a white great wyrm is as challenging to a party as a level 46 NPC with PC wealth would be.

This is something version 6 would be challenging (no pun intended).

Continued research and feedback have shown a number of "That can't be right" moments, which have prompted further study by me (and others).

I still believe you can have a viable CR system. But the sheer number of modifiers and variables involved complicate things.

I mean you have to ask yourself:

1. Is the monster CR correct?
2. Are these classes balanced?
3. Are there any situational modifiers in play?
4. Are these PCs min/maxed?

Any or all of those can change the results drammatically.
 

Hi U_K!

Challenging ratings are tough to get right. I hope fourth edition will be superior, but I'm not holding my breath and may very well stick with 3.X. Only time will tell. I'm certainly not going to proceed with the assumption that 4th ed will necessarily fix everything. But hopefully you will U_K :lol: !

I love what you've done with challenge ratings. I may nitpick some of the things you've done, but even if I disagree with some points, certainly I commend you on doing something that no one else has done, and making some significant improvments on how CR works for higher level characters.

I guess my main question still though is that I still don't understand why you've done what you've done recently with your ECL CR split and CR equals 2/3 of ECL. I think it's a mistake. I think that ECL should not be used for opponents at all--only used for party members. I think that CRs should be used for monsters, that that CR X should represent, "this creature would be an equal challenge to a well-balanced party of adventures of level X as an NPC of level X with wealth of a PC of level X would, and this creature would be a moderate(easy) challenge to a well-balanced party of 4 level X PCs" [I'll call this tcwbaectawbpofolxaanolxwwoapflxwatwbamectawbpo4l4x with X=20]. This is basically your definition of ECL now, but I think it's better off if you make that definition of CR, because that's basically how everybody else defines CR.

Basically, when the official rules say something is CR 20, they mean tcwbaectawbpofolxaanolxwwoapflxwatwbamectawbpo4l4x with X=20. But when you say something is CR 20/ECL 30, you mean tcwbaectawbpofolxaanolxwwoapflxwatwbamectawbpo4l4x with X=30.

I do think you have an excellent point when you say that PC classes are not necessarily balanced, and a discrepancy of 40% is not that suprising either, especially at higher levels, where the discrepancy probably gets even more pronounced. For playtesting purposes, if you want to determine whether a given monster is an equal challenge to a level X NPC, I think that a psychic warrior (XPH rules) is the ideal test point. So, let's say that I want to propose that a given monster would be about an equal challenge as a level 22 NPC with PC wealth. So, to playtest this, I would put a playtest group of one fighter, one rogue, one wizard, and one cleric against the monster. Then put the playtest group up against a level 22 psychic warrior NPC with level 22 PC wealth. If it's about an equal challenge as the monster, then we can conclude that the monster is about an equal challenge as a level 22 NPC with PC wealth, which would equate to 22 ECL in your system, or a 22 CR by the official rules.

Why psychic warrior? Well, some classes aren't good for testing purposes versus a party, because they're support classes, not really meant for soloing. A class that has options, and which we could consider as a reasonable possibility for solo fighting, would be ideal (for purposes of playtesting CR). The main classes that come to mind for this are cleric, druid, and psychic warrior. But we also want a class that is neither overpowered or underpowered, which would skew the results. Many consider the cleric and druid to be overpowered. Psychic Warrior I see as a good balance as being neither underpowered (e.g. fighter, bard) or overpowered (e.g. cleric, druid).

But that was a digression from the main topic. I still don't understand the point of CR=ECL*2/3. In explaining your reasons for doing this, you said, "This discrepancy is easily illustrated when you contrast a 20th-level PC with a CR 20 monster like a Balor. The Balor is much tougher." If that's really true, wouldn't it make more sense just to say that the Balor's supposed CR of 20 is wrong, rather than to say that CR=ECL*2/3.

Because now you changed the definition of what CR means. To everybody else, CR means, "this creature would be an equal challenge to a well-balanced party of adventures of level X as an NPC of level X with wealth of a PC of level X would, and this creature would be a moderate(easy) challenge to a well-balanced party of 4 level X PCs". But instead, you've given that as the definition of ECL, and have defined CR to be 2/3 of ECL.

And your EL system compensates for that. Because your table now reads, in v6, with CR=(2/3)*ECL:

• Challenge Rating is 1/2 Average Party Level = Encounter Level -3 = Easy
• Challenge Rating is 2/3 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +/-0 = Moderate
• Challenge Rating is x1 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +3 = Tough
• Challenge Rating is x1.5 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +6 = Very Tough
• Challenge Rating is x2 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +9 = Impossible

That's again the v6 version, where CR=(2/3)*ECL. That's a change from the old system, in the official system and your v5, which used to have a baseline of: Challenge Rating is x1 Average Party Level = Encounter Level +/-0 = Moderate. But you only had to make that shift because you multiplied by CR by 2/3.

So it looks like you multiplied by 2/3 to match your CR closer to the official CRs. But then you changed the definition of CR!

So here's what you've basically done. You've said. Hmm, my system, before the change, tells me that Balor is CR 30, i.e., about an equal challenge as a level 30 character with PC wealth==ECL 30. But the offical rules say the Balor is CR 20, and everybody wants to know why my CR is so different from the official rules. I know!! Let's define CR=(2/3)*ECL! Now a Balor has a CR of 20! Everything's the same! But now you have to shift the EL table. And now you've changed the definition of CR when you didn't have to. You should just keep CR the same, keep the EL table the same, and correct the CRs, if they need correcting.

And if you think that a tough encounter is a better standard as a typical enounter, you don't have to re-define CR; you can instead just state that the DM should aim for "tough" encounter (EL+3 or whatever that turns out to be) rather than aiming for a "moderate" encounter of EL +/- 0.

A second question is, how thoroughly have you playtested CR*2=EL+6? I would submit that, at CR 25 or higher, you might find that something like CR*2=EL+8, or even a little more than 8 possibly, is a little closer. You already had a "glaring error" in your initial assumption that CR*2=EL+4 was wrong. But could you be making another error in assuming that CR*2=EL+6 is necessarily right?

Again, I'm nitpicking what I think may be errors in your current systems, but props on what you've done so far on challenging challenge ratings (not to mention everything else)!
 

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