National Acrobat
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My group plays 1E, we tried 4E for two months because everyone told us how much it was like 1E, and well, no, it's not. We are back to playing 1E after giving 4E a try.
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Edena_of_Neith
First Post
(humor, off-topic)
This sounds like a Star Fleet Battles discussion.
For example, we have the Klingon D7 Heavy Cruiser, but this is a more advanced version of the Klingon D6, which were - are still are - often used as Prison Ships. Some D7s and older D6s are retrofitted as D7Ds and D6Ds, which means they are Drone Heavy Cruisers, able to fire a large number of drones (thermonuclear missles capable of transwarp speed.)
Some D7s enjoyed an upgrade to their phaser banks, giving them PH-1s in the forward Boom, instead of the PH-2s with the inferior fire control (a problem the Federation solved but which plagued many other races for decades.)
A couple of D7s were modified, I believe, to become Maulers, where most of the systems were ripped out and replaced with batteries, and a giant transwarp gun put in place to blast the energy out. This could blow away enemy ships in one mighty hit, but it could wreck the Mauler in so doing. The hull just wasn't built for such purposes.
When the General War started, the Klingons realized the D7 was cost ineffective, so they ceased production of this Heavy Cruiser (they had enough of them, in active fleets and in mothball, in any case) and began the production of War Cruisers.
The Klingon War Cruiser used a smaller and cheaper hull, and had far fewer systems (it was ineffective as a research and exploratory ship, unlike the D7), but it had the same firepower and shield capacity, and the same power capacity, as the D7. The War Cruiser came in 2 variants, the Heavy and Light War Cruisers. These heavily modified D7s also came with new and improved drone racks, and vastly improved drones.
Some D7s were modified to be Carriers, and became known as D7Cs. This didn't entirely work out, since they could not carry enough fighters and they had to strip the armaments out of the ship to make room for the hangar bays. But fighters were far cheaper to build, so if fighters took out expensive enemy ships and you lost the fighters in so doing, you won (a point the Klingons had learned well from their battles with the Hydrans, the Ultimate Fighter Race.)
When small warp engines came into use, they invented this hideous monstrosity known as a Fast Patrol Ship. Built on a tiny hull smaller than that of a frigate, and quite cheap to produce, they had the firepower of a Heavy Cruiser (D7 and others.) They didn't last long in combat, but they tended to eat enemy ships for dinner, and losing them cost the victorious power nothing.
Some D7s were equipped with mech links (specialized tractor beams) in order to carry these nasty little warships. Again, though, it didn't quite work out. A larger hull was needed than the D7 possessed, and the C8 and C9 dreadnaught hulls, and the mighty B10 battleship hulls, provided the needed size. Specialized PF Tenders were also produced, to carry 6 of these little monsters into battle (the tender had no weapons, but the 6 little ships were like 6 Heavy Cruisers coming at you.)
The Klingons were never able to make a Space Control Ship out of the D7. It simply didn't have a big enough hull. What was a SCS? It was a Carrier and a PF Tender, and it had the weapons of a Dreadnaught. All the races built several of these ships (the Klingons gleefully converted one their B10 superships, into an SCS.)
But the D7 never made the cut.
By the end of the General War, most D7s had been destroyed or so modified as to be unrecognizable, or simply retired and the parts used for other purposes. That was the end of the D7 design, or should have been.
Except that those scientists working on the problem, came up with a whole new set of technologies, applied them, and created the DX, or D7 X-Ship, a highly evolved ship capable of running circles around other ships. The Klingons were amongst the first to create an X-ship in this fashion.
X-drones and X-fighters followed (but not X-PFs ... the superior shields and firepower of X-ships made them obsolete), so the DX became the workhorse of the new fleet.
Due to the invasion of the ISC, and the temporary peace it caused, the Klingons had time to produce quite a large number of DXs, and just in time to save them from the Andromedans, arriving with their alien ships from that nearby galaxy. Unlike other races, the Klingons withstood the assault and held most of their territory. The DX played a crucial role in making this happen.
There was even a D7 scout, although only one or two since D7s were needed for other purposes. Equipped with Special Sensors, scouts explored in peacetime, and played Electronic Warfare for fellow ships, fighters, and PFs during wartime. A most interesting thing, for they came with 2 points of ECM built in, and they could produce 12 points more (of ECM or ECCM) and keep it for themselves, or loan it to other ships/fighters/PFs.
Nimble ships and fighters already came with ECM of their own, ECCM was a power consuming affair, and a lot of objects could lend their own ECM. A lot of ships fired at point blank range, only to see their Phasers did little and their Heavy Weapons miss. Not a pretty sight.
Where is the Retro in all this?
Most of the battles fought were *not* fought with the newest, latest equipment, but with old, antiquated equipment (you could count on the military spending the money elsewhere, not on you and your ship. Or, if you somehow attained importance, Klingonese politics came into the picture and you got demoted to the D6 Prison Ship for some incompetency or minor error you did not commit.)
If the phasers worked, if the disruptors fired, if the transporters and tractor beams worked, if the ship made it out of the Starbase without half of the rotted internal circuitry not burning up (much less when you blasted off into translight) you could count yourself lucky. They didn't call these Mothballed Ships for no reason. If there was a single drone in the drone rack, or more than one shuttle that actually worked, or a single transporter bomb, you were pretty lucky.
Your one break? The Other Side had the same problem.
Now, that's Retro. As Retro as it gets.
You could have had the Phaser-I upgrade. Speed 30 (Warp 3) drones. Scatterpacks. 10 Transporter Bombs. Special Shuttles. All sorts of ship upgrades. Instead, you had a cloud of dust everytime you sat in the Captain's Chair, and the viewscreen wouldn't work half the time you asked for it's use (not that you wanted to see or talk with the Hydrans anyways, but still ...)
This sounds like a Star Fleet Battles discussion.
For example, we have the Klingon D7 Heavy Cruiser, but this is a more advanced version of the Klingon D6, which were - are still are - often used as Prison Ships. Some D7s and older D6s are retrofitted as D7Ds and D6Ds, which means they are Drone Heavy Cruisers, able to fire a large number of drones (thermonuclear missles capable of transwarp speed.)
Some D7s enjoyed an upgrade to their phaser banks, giving them PH-1s in the forward Boom, instead of the PH-2s with the inferior fire control (a problem the Federation solved but which plagued many other races for decades.)
A couple of D7s were modified, I believe, to become Maulers, where most of the systems were ripped out and replaced with batteries, and a giant transwarp gun put in place to blast the energy out. This could blow away enemy ships in one mighty hit, but it could wreck the Mauler in so doing. The hull just wasn't built for such purposes.
When the General War started, the Klingons realized the D7 was cost ineffective, so they ceased production of this Heavy Cruiser (they had enough of them, in active fleets and in mothball, in any case) and began the production of War Cruisers.
The Klingon War Cruiser used a smaller and cheaper hull, and had far fewer systems (it was ineffective as a research and exploratory ship, unlike the D7), but it had the same firepower and shield capacity, and the same power capacity, as the D7. The War Cruiser came in 2 variants, the Heavy and Light War Cruisers. These heavily modified D7s also came with new and improved drone racks, and vastly improved drones.
Some D7s were modified to be Carriers, and became known as D7Cs. This didn't entirely work out, since they could not carry enough fighters and they had to strip the armaments out of the ship to make room for the hangar bays. But fighters were far cheaper to build, so if fighters took out expensive enemy ships and you lost the fighters in so doing, you won (a point the Klingons had learned well from their battles with the Hydrans, the Ultimate Fighter Race.)
When small warp engines came into use, they invented this hideous monstrosity known as a Fast Patrol Ship. Built on a tiny hull smaller than that of a frigate, and quite cheap to produce, they had the firepower of a Heavy Cruiser (D7 and others.) They didn't last long in combat, but they tended to eat enemy ships for dinner, and losing them cost the victorious power nothing.
Some D7s were equipped with mech links (specialized tractor beams) in order to carry these nasty little warships. Again, though, it didn't quite work out. A larger hull was needed than the D7 possessed, and the C8 and C9 dreadnaught hulls, and the mighty B10 battleship hulls, provided the needed size. Specialized PF Tenders were also produced, to carry 6 of these little monsters into battle (the tender had no weapons, but the 6 little ships were like 6 Heavy Cruisers coming at you.)
The Klingons were never able to make a Space Control Ship out of the D7. It simply didn't have a big enough hull. What was a SCS? It was a Carrier and a PF Tender, and it had the weapons of a Dreadnaught. All the races built several of these ships (the Klingons gleefully converted one their B10 superships, into an SCS.)
But the D7 never made the cut.
By the end of the General War, most D7s had been destroyed or so modified as to be unrecognizable, or simply retired and the parts used for other purposes. That was the end of the D7 design, or should have been.
Except that those scientists working on the problem, came up with a whole new set of technologies, applied them, and created the DX, or D7 X-Ship, a highly evolved ship capable of running circles around other ships. The Klingons were amongst the first to create an X-ship in this fashion.
X-drones and X-fighters followed (but not X-PFs ... the superior shields and firepower of X-ships made them obsolete), so the DX became the workhorse of the new fleet.
Due to the invasion of the ISC, and the temporary peace it caused, the Klingons had time to produce quite a large number of DXs, and just in time to save them from the Andromedans, arriving with their alien ships from that nearby galaxy. Unlike other races, the Klingons withstood the assault and held most of their territory. The DX played a crucial role in making this happen.
There was even a D7 scout, although only one or two since D7s were needed for other purposes. Equipped with Special Sensors, scouts explored in peacetime, and played Electronic Warfare for fellow ships, fighters, and PFs during wartime. A most interesting thing, for they came with 2 points of ECM built in, and they could produce 12 points more (of ECM or ECCM) and keep it for themselves, or loan it to other ships/fighters/PFs.
Nimble ships and fighters already came with ECM of their own, ECCM was a power consuming affair, and a lot of objects could lend their own ECM. A lot of ships fired at point blank range, only to see their Phasers did little and their Heavy Weapons miss. Not a pretty sight.
Where is the Retro in all this?
Most of the battles fought were *not* fought with the newest, latest equipment, but with old, antiquated equipment (you could count on the military spending the money elsewhere, not on you and your ship. Or, if you somehow attained importance, Klingonese politics came into the picture and you got demoted to the D6 Prison Ship for some incompetency or minor error you did not commit.)
If the phasers worked, if the disruptors fired, if the transporters and tractor beams worked, if the ship made it out of the Starbase without half of the rotted internal circuitry not burning up (much less when you blasted off into translight) you could count yourself lucky. They didn't call these Mothballed Ships for no reason. If there was a single drone in the drone rack, or more than one shuttle that actually worked, or a single transporter bomb, you were pretty lucky.
Your one break? The Other Side had the same problem.
Now, that's Retro. As Retro as it gets.
You could have had the Phaser-I upgrade. Speed 30 (Warp 3) drones. Scatterpacks. 10 Transporter Bombs. Special Shuttles. All sorts of ship upgrades. Instead, you had a cloud of dust everytime you sat in the Captain's Chair, and the viewscreen wouldn't work half the time you asked for it's use (not that you wanted to see or talk with the Hydrans anyways, but still ...)
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
As in D&D, there were multiple editions of Star Fleet Battles, and the Klingons evolved substantially with each change (especially with those B10s ...)
There were:
The Star Fleet Battles Pocket Edition
The Star Fleet Battles Designers Edition
The Star Fleet Battles Commanders Edition
The Star Fleet Battles Captains Edition (also known as the Doomsday Edition)
As with D&D, each had their errata and corrections, and added material (supplements, in D&D terms.)
My favorite race, the Hydrans, were in one of those supplements, for the Designers Edition.
It is possible to play any edition of Star Fleet Battles.
What is it not possible to do?
It is not possible to play any edition of Star Fleet Battles without memorizing one heck of a lot of rules, then having an arbitrator to make rulings on the rules because nobody understood what they read, can't agree on what to do in the midst of the game, and nobody likes an argument (hopefully.)
Without these things, nasty things occurred ... like someone taking the 120 points allocated to him to build a Heavy Cruiser, and instead welding 6 Large Freighter Hulls together, replacing all Cargo with Battery and APR (Auxillary Power Reactor), sticking 3 Warp Engines at one end, a Bridge at the other end, and adding one giant gun - a super Mauler - thus creating the first (and the only) Star Fleet Battles Death Star (it did up to 800 points of damage in a single shot, enough to destroy a Heavy Cruiser 4 to 8 times over, or mess up a planet real badly.)
Now, the fact that this cannot actually be done, because Freighter Hulls cannot be used for this purpose, could not withstand the shock of firing even an ordinary weapon - much less a giant gun, and Maulers cannot be stuck on Freighter Hulls by any race except the WYN, wasn't relevant ... because when the referee says spend 120 points and Build What You Want, ANYTHING You Want ... then anything can happen. : D
Nuts. It almost worked.
My brother beat me to the punch before I could zap everyone on the board, all 12 of them (running like the scared chickens they would have been!) with my giant fiendish monstrosity.
(sighs)
Ah me. Now, tell me about editions. And I can tell you a lot of stories about various editions of various games. So many stories. So many ...
(My brother, for anyone interested, took a large Andromedan ship, the Intruder, put a small ship with a Mauler known as the Terminator on it on a rotating platform, and the it acted as a 360 weapon, parked on top of the Intruder (which protected it with it's giant Power Absorbers.
Probably the one ship I could not have easily zapped, but the mess that caused when it appeared, upstaged me. I regret it to this day.
Why?
Because it was *MY* day to shine, to run around and zap everyone! Not his! My day. My day to chase them all down and kill, kill, KILL, KILL, KILL!!
They would have gotten my ship in the end (of course, I expected that, and planned to go out in a mighty explosion of glory.) But, by God, it would have been so fun, playing Death Star on them.
Curses on that clever Andromedan (if I ever get a rematch, I will destroy any and all Andromedans *first*, and then no more upstaging of the one and only Edena_of_Neith!)
There were:
The Star Fleet Battles Pocket Edition
The Star Fleet Battles Designers Edition
The Star Fleet Battles Commanders Edition
The Star Fleet Battles Captains Edition (also known as the Doomsday Edition)
As with D&D, each had their errata and corrections, and added material (supplements, in D&D terms.)
My favorite race, the Hydrans, were in one of those supplements, for the Designers Edition.
It is possible to play any edition of Star Fleet Battles.
What is it not possible to do?
It is not possible to play any edition of Star Fleet Battles without memorizing one heck of a lot of rules, then having an arbitrator to make rulings on the rules because nobody understood what they read, can't agree on what to do in the midst of the game, and nobody likes an argument (hopefully.)
Without these things, nasty things occurred ... like someone taking the 120 points allocated to him to build a Heavy Cruiser, and instead welding 6 Large Freighter Hulls together, replacing all Cargo with Battery and APR (Auxillary Power Reactor), sticking 3 Warp Engines at one end, a Bridge at the other end, and adding one giant gun - a super Mauler - thus creating the first (and the only) Star Fleet Battles Death Star (it did up to 800 points of damage in a single shot, enough to destroy a Heavy Cruiser 4 to 8 times over, or mess up a planet real badly.)
Now, the fact that this cannot actually be done, because Freighter Hulls cannot be used for this purpose, could not withstand the shock of firing even an ordinary weapon - much less a giant gun, and Maulers cannot be stuck on Freighter Hulls by any race except the WYN, wasn't relevant ... because when the referee says spend 120 points and Build What You Want, ANYTHING You Want ... then anything can happen. : D
Nuts. It almost worked.
My brother beat me to the punch before I could zap everyone on the board, all 12 of them (running like the scared chickens they would have been!) with my giant fiendish monstrosity.
(sighs)
Ah me. Now, tell me about editions. And I can tell you a lot of stories about various editions of various games. So many stories. So many ...
(My brother, for anyone interested, took a large Andromedan ship, the Intruder, put a small ship with a Mauler known as the Terminator on it on a rotating platform, and the it acted as a 360 weapon, parked on top of the Intruder (which protected it with it's giant Power Absorbers.
Probably the one ship I could not have easily zapped, but the mess that caused when it appeared, upstaged me. I regret it to this day.
Why?
Because it was *MY* day to shine, to run around and zap everyone! Not his! My day. My day to chase them all down and kill, kill, KILL, KILL, KILL!!
They would have gotten my ship in the end (of course, I expected that, and planned to go out in a mighty explosion of glory.) But, by God, it would have been so fun, playing Death Star on them.
Curses on that clever Andromedan (if I ever get a rematch, I will destroy any and all Andromedans *first*, and then no more upstaging of the one and only Edena_of_Neith!)
You and me both!
In our group, we had one guy who was a Fed master, another who ran Romulans like he had pointed ears, and then me with my crafty crafty Hydrans (I also liked Tholians, Kzinti, and the occasional Gorn).
Best game ever? Massive fleet action between 2 teams of 2 players. Team 1: Klingons & Lyrans. Team 2 (mine): Hydrans and Tholians. The scenario was a fleet action in which the Hydrans were trying to invade a little appendix of Klingon space, joining up with the Tholians, leading to the cutting off and capture of a few Klingon planets & starbases.
The Klingons and Lyrans did most of the shooting...but my battle plan caused them to retreat in defeat.
*overloading Fusion Beams, charging Hellbores, and coming around with shields up and reinforced*
Smile when you say that!
Smile when you say that!
Brown Jenkin
First Post
Personally I thought the ISC were the best but the Hydrans were my next choice. Fighting the Kzinti was always a pain.
Alzrius
The EN World kitten
It's all about the Xindi, not the Kzinti - primates and reptilians and aquatics, oh my!
Edena_of_Neith
First Post
It's not quite Star Trek. It's ... Star Fleet Battles.
In the original Star Trek, the Klingons used the Disruptor as their primary weapon. Later, in Star Trek the Next Generation, they upgraded to Photon Torpedoes and Phasers.
In Star Fleet Battles, there is no Star Trek, the Next Generation, since they never had the Copyrights for it.
The Klingons in the *Star Trek* era had the Disruptor, and it was a more effective weapon than shown in Star Trek (although, it isn't terribly effective sometimes, even in Star Fleet Battles.)
The Klingons also carry a large number of Phasers on their ships. These are known as Phaser-IIs. The strongest type of Phaser is the Phaser-I (used by the Federation, using superior computer targeting systems) then the Phaser-II (inferior targetting but the same amount of power), then the Phaser-III (low powered, short range), and the Phaser-Gatling (PH-G, a nasty variant of the PH-3, invented by the Hydrans.)
Starbases and other stationary units - and ONLY stationary units - have Phaser-IVs, an extremely powerful model based on great energy and on superior computer targetting (easier from a stationary unit, impossible to put on any ship, even ones like the B-10 ... despite endless efforts to do it.)
The Klingons also had drones. These are powerful thermonuclear (and sometimes anti-matter) warheads, and move at up to over Warp 3 across the board. These are very versatile, and one can put them into Shuttles for even more versatility.
Drones were never used by the Klingons in Star Trek. It is well for Captain Kirk that they were not. Otherwise, a certain Federation ship - when it lost it's warp power - would have been pounded by Klingon drones until it disintegrated.
The Klingons in Star Fleet Battles never upgraded to the Photon Torpedo. There was no need.
They upgraded their Disruptors instead. They upgraded their Phasers. They upgraded their Drones. And Shuttles. Photon Torpedoes? Bah, who needs them?
Now, that is Retro with a Vengeance. A Klingon, will be a Klingon! And if you do not fear their weapons, you will learn fear. Oh yes, you will. These are not your Father's Klingons. : )
In the original Star Trek, the Klingons used the Disruptor as their primary weapon. Later, in Star Trek the Next Generation, they upgraded to Photon Torpedoes and Phasers.
In Star Fleet Battles, there is no Star Trek, the Next Generation, since they never had the Copyrights for it.
The Klingons in the *Star Trek* era had the Disruptor, and it was a more effective weapon than shown in Star Trek (although, it isn't terribly effective sometimes, even in Star Fleet Battles.)
The Klingons also carry a large number of Phasers on their ships. These are known as Phaser-IIs. The strongest type of Phaser is the Phaser-I (used by the Federation, using superior computer targeting systems) then the Phaser-II (inferior targetting but the same amount of power), then the Phaser-III (low powered, short range), and the Phaser-Gatling (PH-G, a nasty variant of the PH-3, invented by the Hydrans.)
Starbases and other stationary units - and ONLY stationary units - have Phaser-IVs, an extremely powerful model based on great energy and on superior computer targetting (easier from a stationary unit, impossible to put on any ship, even ones like the B-10 ... despite endless efforts to do it.)
The Klingons also had drones. These are powerful thermonuclear (and sometimes anti-matter) warheads, and move at up to over Warp 3 across the board. These are very versatile, and one can put them into Shuttles for even more versatility.
Drones were never used by the Klingons in Star Trek. It is well for Captain Kirk that they were not. Otherwise, a certain Federation ship - when it lost it's warp power - would have been pounded by Klingon drones until it disintegrated.
The Klingons in Star Fleet Battles never upgraded to the Photon Torpedo. There was no need.
They upgraded their Disruptors instead. They upgraded their Phasers. They upgraded their Drones. And Shuttles. Photon Torpedoes? Bah, who needs them?
Now, that is Retro with a Vengeance. A Klingon, will be a Klingon! And if you do not fear their weapons, you will learn fear. Oh yes, you will. These are not your Father's Klingons. : )
BryonD
Hero
That generalization is very true.
However, it does not apply to the specific case in question.
The very point that has been praised is that it no longer tries to do all the things that 3E went for and rolled back to simplification.
Saying that regressing to a easier standard is more enjoyable then fine, I won't dispute your personal preference. But going back to reaching for less does not meet my definition of progress.
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