Changes to Devils and Demons

[kenmarable]

I just don't see why the Planescape arrangement of the multiverse should be more "core" than any other.

I can't speak for other Planescapers, but personally I don't feel any need for the Great Wheel to be more core than any other cosmology. It'd just be nice if changes could still allow Planescape/Great Wheel without mechanical changes (like shifting around at least one devil/demon and possibly others). Fluff is fluff and easy to edit. It's when mechanics start getting in the way of existing fluff that things can get difficult.

I guess I see an analogy being the elimination of specialist wizards. What then for the Red Wizards of Thay? Or eliminating a weak school of magic. Yeah all the spells are still there shuffled around a bit, but the Zulkir of Diviniation is left homeless. Probably not a great analogy, but I hope you see my point. It's not about trying to make one setting more core than the rest, it's hoping new mechanics don't get in the way of keeping the majority of an old setting around.

But I've had my vent. I don't know what the final succubi will look like and how devilish they will be or if I will even ever use them. Fluff and even mechanics can be changed if need be, just one is often a lot easier to alter than the other.

For the record, since 3.x splitting FR and Eberron off into their own cosmologies, I, personally, have no problem with the Great Wheel not being core (apparently others differ, just don't lump me in with them). I'd just like to be able to use existing Planescape material without major overhauls to either it or 4e.

 

[Aeolius]

What are naelle and phlenar and where can I find info on them?

The naelle, or wasp daemon, and phlenar, or blood demodand, are the daughters of night hags by daemon and demodand fathers respectively. I devised them for my "Into the Land of Black Ice" PbP back in the '90s. At the moment, they reside solely within the confines of my waterlogged noggin.

 

[Mouseferatu]

As others have said, I like Planescape... as its own setting, with its own feel. I do not feel that any of its details or aspects need to translate over to every setting, though.

I can't speak for other Planescapers, but personally I don't feel any need for the Great Wheel to be more core than any other cosmology. It'd just be nice if changes could still allow Planescape/Great Wheel without mechanical changes (like shifting around at least one devil/demon and possibly others). Fluff is fluff and easy to edit. It's when mechanics start getting in the way of existing fluff that things can get difficult.

Don't take this wrong--seriously --but...

Why?

Eberron requires mechanical changes from the core. Dark Sun requires/required mechanical changes from the core. Ravenloft, Al-Qadim, Spelljammer... Even Forgotten Realms, arguably one of the quintessential D&D settings, requires a few mechanical changes from the core.

Why should PS be any different? And why is it a big deal if it does require such changes?

IMO, there should be exactly one setting that requires no mechanical changes from the core--and that's the implied core setting. Everything else should go with whatever works best for that particular setting, flavor-wise and mechanics-wise.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Not by much. The Great Wheel's been around since 1e. Many of its planes were listed inthe 1e Monster Manual. Did Lolth precede it?

Lolth was mentioned shortly after MM1.

 

[TwinBahamut]

It's very popular. Personally, I don't hate the setting. What I don't like is that a vocal portion of the fans keep pushing that it should be the default for D&D. Some of them even want to shoehorn it into every single setting.

I'm of the same opinion. I mean, I don't have a problem with people who enjoy Planescape, but it is the idea that Planescape=D&D that some are arguing in this thread that I don't agree with.

Sure, you can argue that elements of it have been in the game since 1st Edition, but so was THAC0 (good riddance). Also, just because it was there, doesn't mean that everyone used it or liked it.

I mean, someone above has argued that Lloth was part of the "common D&D experience", but since I never once played in the Forgotten Realms, it is not part of my experience. It can't really be a "common" or "necessary" element for me.

The only things to D&D which are common to all D&D players and necessary are the core rules mechanics, in particular the PC design mechanics, not fluff elements or specfifc monsters which may never show up in a particular campaign. and even of these core mechanics, old relics like Vancian spellcasting are nowhere near universally accepted, and are being chalenged.

Why should a few elements be held as "unchangable" because it would slightly disrupt Planescape, when even Vancian magic is being challenged?

 

[Desdichado]

Sorry, I thought we were discussing how obscure the Order/Chaos dichotomy is. The answer to which, within the gamer community, is "not very". Outwith that community, you're quite right - it is pretty obscure. So, point taken.

I don't think that's a very relevent point, though. I may think that my interpretation of law/chaos is clear to me, but from the various alignment threads that pop up with a startling degree of regularity, I find that not everyone has an interpretation that I can even recognize, much less find common ground with.

 

[Desdichado]

Perhaps. Or, perhaps, you should be more clear.

Perhaps... he was clear and you just didn't read it very carefully.

 

[Raven Crowking]

IMO, there should be exactly one setting that requires no mechanical changes from the core--and that's the implied core setting. Everything else should go with whatever works best for that particular setting, flavor-wise and mechanics-wise.

Seconded!

 

[Shade]

I'm of the same opinion. I mean, I don't have a problem with people who enjoy Planescape, but it is the idea that Planescape=D&D that some are arguing in this thread that I don't agree with.

I've not been stating that Planescape=D&D, but rather that the Great Wheel is an essential part of D&D. It predated Planescape by many years.

Sure, you can argue that elements of it have been in the game since 1st Edition, but so was THAC0 (good riddance). Also, just because it was there, doesn't mean that everyone used it or liked it.

But THAC0 is a rules element, not flavor.

I mean, someone above has argued that Lloth was part of the "common D&D experience", but since I never once played in the Forgotten Realms, it is not part of my experience. It can't really be a "common" or "necessary" element for me.

Lolth was around, and popular, before the Forgotten Realms. She even popped up on the old D&D cartoon, so was a part of popular culture outside the game, along with Tiamat and some other essential D&D elements.

The only things to D&D which are common to all D&D players and necessary are the core rules mechanics, in particular the PC design mechanics, not fluff elements or specfifc monsters which may never show up in a particular campaign. and even of these core mechanics, old relics like Vancian spellcasting are nowhere near universally accepted, and are being chalenged.

You missed my point then. The mechanics don't matter as much as the flavor. People on these boards are playing more than 4 different versions of this game, and the flavor elements are what we have in common. That was the shared experience I was suggesting.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

I guess I see an analogy being the elimination of specialist wizards. What then for the Red Wizards of Thay? Or eliminating a weak school of magic. Yeah all the spells are still there shuffled around a bit, but the Zulkir of Diviniation is left homeless. Probably not a great analogy, but I hope you see my point.

The reason that I don't think it's a good analogy is that I've always been somewhat of the opinion that the specialist wizard rules never worked very well.

I would have no problem, for example, with a conjurer just being a wizard who liked, used often, and studied advanced conjuration-type spells.

Similarly, the Zulkir of Divination would be just the admitted best user of divination-type spells.

Each of those characters would teach his or her apprentices spells in the appropriate vein. In fact, I played a Conjuration-specialist wizard whose master was also a Conjuration-specialist wizard without using any wizard specialist variant rules (including the "Give up 2 other schools, get a bonus spell of your school" present in the PHB).

We did it all with spell selection and flavor.