Changes to Devils and Demons

[Puggins]

I'm hoping that this doesn't insult the Planescape fans here. I think PS is a novel take on D&D cosmology, and cool in its own way. But anyway....

My first experience with Demons/Devils came from the 1e Monster Manual, and the impressions I got from those entries were... terrifying, really. Here were mystical creatures of a Biblical nature that existed in a damned reality that mirrored the Judeo-Christian belief in hell. Just looking through the entries evoked visions of the unknowable fiends from Conan, the Fiends of Chaos from Elric, the Goat-Headed demons (supposedly) worshipped by secret and forbidden cults in the dark, dank corners of the world... you know, basically the stuff that keeps children up at night terrified of the dark. Merely placing one of these... things... in an adventure radically altered its complexion- you weren't messing around with greedy and foolish greenskins or oversized insects anymore. Now you were toe-to-toe with powers beyond your reckoning, things whose knowledge stretched thousands of your lifetimes. Basically, Lovecraft mixed liberally with western impressions of damnation. It was both cool and forbidding. Demons and Devils were special monsters, use sparingly at most. Count the number of them used in published 1e modules- only Queen of the Demonweb pits used them, and even that module used them somewhat sparingly.

Now fast forward to 2e/Planescape. I go the sense that in order to "sanitize" D&D, Demons and Devils were made far more scientific and mechanical. Demons became Baatezu, were stripped of their mythical and forbidding origins and became pawns/players in a decidedly pedestrian Blood War, which made them feel more like a 19th century European Power than a race of unknowable horrors from an ageless realm. Hell became Baator, and became eminently more feasible to traverse. When a wizard traveled to the Outer Planes, he no longer entered realms beyond mortal ken- he entered something closer to Star Wars space- a reality filled with countless alien races, many with nigh-imaginable power, but all with decidedly pedestrian origins, at least compared to the Old Ones from Lovecraft, or the Biblical Hellspawn.

In short, Out went Dante's divine comedy and Lovercraft's Far realms, in came the Jules Verne and David Brin view of the multiverse.

I'm not saying it was a bad thing, mind you- TONS of people loved it, but I have to say that a little bit of wonder sorta died within me- the new Demons and Devils were Machiavellian masters of intrigue and power, but weren't the might masters of reality and time that they used to be.

Lately, I think some of the 1e flavor has started to seep back in- Malcanthet and some other newer creations (Obox-Ob, Dagon) are decidedly creepy and unholy, and Eberron's Xoriat is a nice nod to Lovecraft. I see this new fluff as another shift towards the old mystical/unknowable, and I'm really stoked. I want my players to be decidedly creeped out by the presence of a devil, not to think of it as some sort of extra-dimensional super soldier.

Again, no offense to the Planescape crowd- I think PS is edgy and original, but it's not my cup of tea. This, on the other hand, sounds decidedly awesome.

 

[avin]

I am up for the change. I agree with a generic MM. What sounds really really weird to me, as a Wow player, is this "must be a role" enforcement: these use swords, these don't.

I can live without the Blood War.
I can live without The Great Wheel.
Hey, I modify demons /devils myself all the time...

I'm just afraid the new rules won't allow me to customize my campaign in therms of ROLEPLAY not just filling ROLES. Hope Wotc convice me I'm wrong but it feels like Blizzard toning down classes for instances and PVP... "LF1M DPS Tarrasque" ...

 

[Voadam]

Similiarly, Baalzebub, mythologically the Lord of Flies, being presented as a slug-man devil instead of an insectoid being is a lame idea.

A little more appropriate if you think of it as a maggotty larval fly form he was cursed into.

 

[Creeping Death]

*snip*

For those who are concerned about the "Blood War", that was a 2nd Edition invention, a battle between the Tann'ari & Baatezu. In 1st Edition it never existed. Demons lived in the Abyss & Devils lived in Hell. Baator did not exist. Neither were known to cross over into the others domain. If 4th edition removes the Blood War & it makes you fell Sloth, Envy or Wrath, just keep it in your campaign.

Actually the seed for the blood war did exist in 1e, although it wasn't given a name and is very obscure. Page 102 of the 1e Manual of the Planes: "The only unifying force is their hatred of good and organized peoples." This is talking about the various demon lords. Now that could be read as they hate LG alignments or all good and all lawful alignments.

Later, page 110 of the same book, it describes the arch-devils: "The arch-devils are a group of powerful devils (treat as lesser gods in their home plane) dedicated to the defeat of good and their own supremacy over all the known planes of existence." Of course they will seek to destroy good, but the supremacy part would definately put them at odds with the demons.

As far as crossing into other domains, encounter tables in the 1e MotP do have you running into demons and devils outside of the Abyss and the Nine Hells. Besides, wouldn't the arch-devils have to send out forces to invade other planes if they were ever going to have supremacy over all known planes of existence?

The name change from 1e to 2e was just to appease some fanatics (read as the Jack Chicks of the world) that were trying to ban/bar/destroy D&D.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The name change was also cool.

I like baatezu and tanar'ri as names for specific kinds of demons and devils.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

I don't know what the great wheel is. well i guess i know what it is, but only from people on these boards. I don't know anything speicificly about it, other then its supposed to transcend the other planes. It doesen't sound that amazing really. I think it would make the other settings have a less solid feel and belittle their importance. Something i don't understand though, If demons and devils represent radically different ethical alignments (law and chaos) why do they look so similar? would it make sense if babylon 5 had both the vorlons and shadows look entirely like one or the other, but not both? For demons and devils to make sense they should look very very very different. Its should be apparent in all their buildings, in the way they dress, the way they walk, etc... If they are magic, they would even force them selves to look different from echother.

The problem is, changeing demons and devils to look different would diverge the look of demons and devils who are almost interchangeable in our real life mythologys, they really were quite similar in apparence. and are interchangeable. I think two powerful races of order and chaos are cool, but i don't think demons and devils fit the bill. In my game, they are interchangeable. They only good thing about demons and devils differences is it explains why their entrance onto earth from hell doesen't happen on a regular basses (in the world, not for the pcs). Demons and devils fight echother more then the lower planes. Thats easily solved with plane magic being alot harder to cast, even by the strongest of demons, and the lesser demons or devils have a requires lesser amounts of magic.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Similiarly, Baalzebub, mythologically the Lord of Flies, being presented as a slug-man devil instead of an insectoid being is a lame idea.

I never understood that one, and I generally liked BoVD (although a bit too much of the Vile Darkness was really just unusual sexual preferences, IMO, which got in the way of the really excellent eeeeevil that was also present).

 

[DarthDiablo]

Actually the seed for the blood war did exist in 1e, although it wasn't given a name and is very obscure. Page 102 of the 1e Manual of the Planes: "The only unifying force is their hatred of good and organized peoples." This is talking about the various demon lords. Now that could be read as they hate LG alignments or all good and all lawful alignments.

Later, page 110 of the same book, it describes the arch-devils: "The arch-devils are a group of powerful devils (treat as lesser gods in their home plane) dedicated to the defeat of good and their own supremacy over all the known planes of existence." Of course they will seek to destroy good, but the supremacy part would definately put them at odds with the demons.

As far as crossing into other domains, encounter tables in the 1e MotP do have you running into demons and devils outside of the Abyss and the Nine Hells. Besides, wouldn't the arch-devils have to send out forces to invade other planes if they were ever going to have supremacy over all known planes of existence?

The name change from 1e to 2e was just to appease some fanatics (read as the Jack Chicks of the world) that were trying to ban/bar/destroy D&D.

Yes the name change was used to settle the controversy caused by some religious fanatics. I grew up in that era and remember when Mazes & Monsters starring Tom Hanks was what most people thought of D&D. Now gamers are just put into the Nerd catagory. Napolean Dynamite is probably the biggest recent pop-culture movie character to be associated with the game. On the positive side-good movies like LOTR has made D&D more mainstream and actors like Vin Diesel being self-confessed players & supporters of the game help too. But enough of that, about those Devils....

I see how your interpretation of MM1 can be read as a seed to the Blood War, now that the Blood war is official 2E/3E canon. However your description of the Demon Lords and their only unifying force being the hatred of good and organized peoples isn't really specific enough to justify that they have had an eternal war with their LE counterparts.

I do agree that if the Arch-Devils were to conquer every known plane it would put them at odds with the Demons. And every one else on every other plane they invaded. Again no specific mention of their hatred toward the Demons. 2E is what brought the Blood War into D&D. Yes you could bump into a Demon or Devil on another plane, especially the Prime Material where they are often summoned. It's been a long time since I held a 1E manual, but I don't recall any mention of encounters with Devils in the Abyss or Demons in the 9 Hells. I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just it wasn't considered a 1E Norm for Demons & Devils to hate each other as much as they hated the good powers.

This is not to say I hate the idea. I actually found the Blood War to be interesting as Planescape canon. For the common adventurer in a Pseudo-Medieval-Fantasy world I don't think its necessary, unless the 2 forces of evil are battling over a mortal soul (in which case they could be 2 Demons battling each other; or even 2 Devils-though some alignment nazis may argue "due to thier lawful nature it could never happen" )

Overall I like the idea of Devils as fallen angels who are more corrupting in their power, and Demons as primeval forces of destruction. It still fits the LE/CE dychotomy without having to use archaic alignment rules to force the creatures into a narrow type of behavior.

 

[DarthDiablo]

Actually the seed for the blood war did exist in 1e, although it wasn't given a name and is very obscure. Page 102 of the 1e Manual of the Planes: "The only unifying force is their hatred of good and organized peoples." This is talking about the various demon lords. Now that could be read as they hate LG alignments or all good and all lawful alignments.

This can also be read as the only unifying force that holds back Demon Lord vs. Demon Lord (due to their chaotic nature), not just the only unifying force of Demons Vs. Devils. Having said that, I believe it is canon that Demogorgon, Orcus & Grazz't are in a 3-way battle for best looking demon lord in the Abyss (I think Grazz't is winning, despite his 6th finger).

 

[senna]

Well, i think that the problem is that Planescape is a metasetting at its heart. It was created to be the converging point for much of the things that were common between the settings. It gave its own twists to it with the factions, sigil, the chant and the way that belief shaps the planes, but it was, for the most part, a melting pot for almost everything that feels D&D, being based on what was constructed in 20 years of fluff to the game. If you take that out you, prety much, dissolve one of the main reasons of the setting.

So, i can feel why that changes, the mecanical ones and the implied ones about flavor, can cheapen the feeling of planescape for its fans.