Charging Paladin build

[mvincent]

Not only can you not use Sunder on an AOO, you can't use it in place of an attack

From the Rules of the Game:
"Sunder: You can attempt to sunder an object as a melee attack. You usually use the attack or full attack action for a sunder, but you also can sunder as an attack of opportunity."

From the 3.5 FAQ:
"Sunder is a special kind of melee attack. If it were a special
standard action, its description would say so (as the descriptive
text for the Manyshot feat says).
If you make a full attack, and you have multiple attacks
from a high base attack bonus, you can sunder more than once,
or attack and sunder, or some other combination of attacking
and sundering.
Sunder does indeed get its own entry in Table 8–2: Actions
in Combat in the Player’s Handbook. It needs one because
unlike a regular melee attack, sunder provokes an attack of
opportunity (although not if you have the Improved Sunder
feat).
You can also disarm, grapple, or trip as a melee attack (or
attack of opportunity).
Also
"As long as every attack is made with one of the monk’s special weapons (that is, weapons allowed as part of a flurry), the monk can perform any special attack that takes the place of a normal attack. She’s free to disarm, sunder, trip, and grapple to her heart’s content."
and
"the same ogre trying to sunder your weapon with his greatclub would provoke an attack of opportunity that you could make only against the greatclub (that is, with a disarm or sunder attempt)."
and
"Is it possible for an attack of opportunity to provoke an
attack of opportunity? For example, a fighter attempts to
trip a cleric. The cleric chooses to make a sunder attack
against the fighter’s weapon as his attack of opportunity.
Does the sunder attack then provoke an attack of
opportunity from the fighter?
Yes. An attack of opportunity is adjudicated just like any
other attack, and it is subject to the same rules (including
provoking additional attacks of opportunity).

So, at the very least, if your were in an official RPGA game (which uses such clarifications) then you certainly could Sunder on an AOO. The above rulings also seem like fair information that even non-RPGA questioning posters should at least have access to.

Saying that 'most players understand otherwise' and calling it 'fairly silly' is not exactly civil behaviour

Really? Fair enough; I have edited my previous post.

and perhaps you could do with reading the links highlighted by Umbran above.

I've read them, and I agreed completely when they said that this board has a bad reputation for bickering (long before I started posting here regularly). I believe this is largely because the moderators themselves encourage the disparaging of the FAQ and RotG (i.e. supplements that are normally intended to resolve common rules debates). I constantly see rude remarks after doing nothing but quoting such supplements (i.e. offering information in order to assist others). Based on a previous poll on the subject, their viewpoint seems to be a minority, but nonetheless such posting has become pervasive here.

 

[VonRichthofen]

Probably, but if you the Charging Smite ability, then you don't get the paladin's special mount, so your mount will have the life expectancy of an assault pioneer.

If you can spare the feats for Wild Cohort, this might help.


Concerning Sunder/Standard Action, I have to second mvincent's view.

My PHB says:

"SUNDER - You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding...."

To me, this does not call for a Standard Action.

But maybe you can provide hard facts that contradict this point of view.

 

[RigaMortus2]

If you can spare the feats for Wild Cohort, this might help.


Concerning Sunder/Standard Action, I have to second mvincent's view.

My PHB says:

"SUNDER - You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding...."

To me, this does not call for a Standard Action.

But maybe you can provide hard facts that contradict this point of view.

The only "fact" I could find was the Table which indicates that Sunder is a Standard Action to perform. Of course, this isn't spelled out in the text, and we all know text overrules tables. FWIW, I agree with you. You can make a sunder whenver you would normally be allowed a melee attack (just as you can do a Trip or Grapple in place of one).

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Of course, this isn't spelled out in the text, and we all know text overrules tables.

... when there's a contradiction.

Since there isn't a contradiction - one can take the Attack (melee) Standard action to make a single attack; one can take the Sunder Standard action to make a single attack; one can take the Cast a Spell Standard action to [sometimes] make a single attack; etc. - there is no reason to resort to the "Text Trumps Table" rule.

Accordingly, since Sunder is not listed under the Action Type: Varies table, and it does not bear Footnote #7, it is a standard action in its own right.

The RotG / FAQ article is wrong, and has spurious reasoning to back up its claims.

 

[blargney the second]

What changes if sunder is a regular melee attack instead of a standard action?

 

[Klaus]

What changes if sunder is a regular melee attack instead of a standard action?

Then you can perform multiple Sunders in a full attack, you can attempt to SUnder at the end of a charge, you can mix Spring Attack and Sunder, you can Sunder with two weapons if you are TWF...

 

[IndyPendant]

If you're playing in Eberron, you could also go human and get Least Dragonmark: Passage (Dimension Leap). Then build on it with Quicken Dragonmark, and maybe Lesser Dragonmark and Greater Dragonmark. I have a (non-charging-centric) melee god with those feats, and let me tell you being able to bounce all over the battlefield as a free action like some insane Nightcrawler on steroids has been invaluable!

Concept: Charge in for massive smiting damage. Next round, as a free action, Dimension Leap 10' back. Charge in for massive smiting damage. Repeat as necessary/abilities permit.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Then you can perform multiple Sunders in a full attack, you can attempt to SUnder at the end of a charge, you can mix Spring Attack and Sunder, you can Sunder with two weapons if you are TWF...

... you can Sunder as an AoO, you can Sunder and Combat Expertise or Fight Defensively simultaneously, you can Sunder after an Improved Trip ...

 

[Legildur]

But maybe you can provide hard facts that contradict this point of view.

Patryn has already done so.

This argument has been hashed out many times already and the positions basically fall into three camps

1. those that rely purely on the PHB and say Sunder is it's own Standard Action;
2. those that rely purely on the PHB and say Sunder replaces a melee attack; and
3. those that rely on the FAQ/RotG and say Sunder replaces a melee attack.

And it has been shown repeatedly that the FAQ, while an admittedly useful document, is hardly error free or never contradicts the PHB. And the RotG articles have an even lower degree of accuracy and reliability.

Personally, I hold to (1), though I can see why others might support (2) or (3). But this argument is old and has been covered in previous threads. Feel free to search for them and acquaint yourself with the arguments. All I am saying, mainly for the benefit of others, is that it is an area of debate and not simply an accepted universal ruling.

 

[bestone]

Im of the opinion, it was on the table as a standard action, because it is an attack, and an attack is a standard action, no? i mean, its just another form of an attack, and thats what the table was for, listing different types of things *like attacks* and what they would be. I mean it pretty clearly states that its used as a melee attack.

It would be true, if you used a melee attack to sunder, it would be a standard action....no? thats how i interpret it

But to each his own, and untill errata comes out, there will be difference of opinions and arguments