D&D (2024) Check Out The New Monster Manual’s Ancient Gold Dragon

Wizards of the Coast has previewed (part of) the stat block for one of its iconic monsters on social media. Take a look!

 

[Crimson Longinus]

The most obvious way to get an AC of 30 is +3 Full Plate, +3 Shield

I always thought it was insane that these stack. I stole a rule from 4e, that if several magic items provide a bonus to the same thing, only the best one applies.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Well when I say AC 25-30 is common, I mean among Fighters, Paladins, Barbarians and front line martial types

Yes, that’s what I was talking about too.

I am just assuming a typical game with typical magic items, not a Low Magic Campaign - which obviously the GM may have to make allowances for

In a typical low magic campaign the level 20 fighter has full plate +1. No +3 items anywhere. I’ve played at level 20, and the highest AC I have seen was 22 (they were a cleric).

Your experience oh high level play is not the universal experience.

 

[ezo]

Well, we know from the other thread that a 20th-level monk will likely have AC 24... naked.

Fighter or Paladin Plate +1, shield +2 is AC 23 and extremely modest IMO for a 20th-level PC. Tack on Defense style and AC 24.

Barbarian with the same shield +2 and DEX 14 can be AC 23 also... also naked.

I could be wrong, but these are all just rare items, not even very rare or legendary.

Now, toss in a ring or cloak or spell or whatever and you get ACs creeping higher. I don't often see ACs above 25 (short of a shield spell), even in high level play, but certainly 22-25 is easy to achieve in most games. In high-pwer games, ACs over 25 seem very possible--even likely.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Well, we know from the other thread that a 20th-level monk will likely have AC 24... naked.

Fighter or Paladin Plate +1, shield +2 is AC 23 and extremely modest IMO for a 20th-level PC. Tack on Defense style and AC 24.

Barbarian with the same shield +2 and DEX 14 can be AC 23 also... also naked.

I could be wrong, but these are all just rare items, not even very rare or legendary.

Now, toss in a ring or cloak or spell or whatever and you get ACs creeping higher. I don't often see ACs above 25 (short of a shield spell), even in high level play, but certainly 22-25 is easy to achieve in most games. In high-pwer games, ACs over 25 seem very possible--even likely.

And yet ancient dragons have quite a bit lower AC than that. It is weird.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Well, we know from the other thread that a 20th-level monk will likely have AC 24... naked.

Fighter or Paladin Plate +1, shield +2 is AC 23 and extremely modest IMO for a 20th-level PC. Tack on Defense style and AC 24.

Barbarian with the same shield +2 and DEX 14 can be AC 23 also... also naked.

I could be wrong, but these are all just rare items, not even very rare or legendary.

Now, toss in a ring or cloak or spell or whatever and you get ACs creeping higher. I don't often see ACs above 25 (short of a shield spell), even in high level play, but certainly 22-25 is easy to achieve in most games. In high-pwer games, ACs over 25 seem very possible--even likely.

Those numbers are quite significant. AC 28 is the point when the dragon becomes more likely to miss than hit. Short of Shield spell, +3 gear or other power-gamey shenanigans, averagely-optimal high level parties aint getting there. AC 25 isn't enough. And you need an AC of around 36 to be reasonably confident the dragon won't hit.

 

[ezo]

And yet ancient dragons have quite a bit lower AC than that. It is weird.

Yep. I is the problem of the "designed without magic items" but "everyone uses magic items" issue.

Those numbers are quite significant. AC 28 is the point when the dragon becomes more likely to miss than hit. Short of Shield spell, +3 gear or other power-gamey shenanigans, averagely-optimal high level parties aint getting there. AC 25 isn't enough.

If you shoot for the "golden 65%" then this AGD with +17 attack should be targeting AC 25. Except in farily high-powered games, IME AC 25 is pretty much a high cap for PCs.

With AC 22, the PCs should be shooting for +14 on attack. Likely enough given +11 from proficiency and ability alone, if not a little better in 2024 with ability scores over 20 more possible. However, even a +11, throw in a +1 or +2 weapon and maybe a spell like bless or something and the PCs are right at or better than the 65% target.

A simple house-rule I do when I run high-power games is up the AC by 1 point per tier. So, this AGD would be AC 26 then.

 

[NotAYakk]

i think what you are failing to grasp is… a party is not supposed to fight any monster 10 CR higher than they are.

A 20th level party is not supposed to fight the tarrasque straight up, if they do…yes they are supposed to get obliterated, just as a 10th level party fighting a CR 20 legendary monster should do the same.

That is not a fight the PCS are supposed to just take on. They should bring an artifact or an army or ancient magic magguffin X

What? No.

A CR 30 monster to a level 20 party is like a CR 15 monster to a level 10 party, or a CR 8 monster to a level 5 party.

Difficult, but not "you are dead unless you cheat".

 

[Upper_Krust]

Yes, that’s what I was talking about too.

In a typical low magic campaign the level 20 fighter has full plate +1. No +3 items anywhere. I’ve played at level 20, and the highest AC I have seen was 22 (they were a cleric).

Your experience oh high level play is not the universal experience.

I would agree my experience of high/epic level play is not universal, but I would say its representative of the majority of campaigns.

I do not expect to see a lot of Low Magic Epic Tier campaigns; those two things seem largely (though not exclusively) at odds with each other.

Therefore, since we cannot please everybody all of the time, the next best thing is to please the majority and the majority of Epic Tier campaigns very likely include standard magic item allocation.

 

[Upper_Krust]

What? No.

A CR 30 monster to a level 20 party is like a CR 15 monster to a level 10 party, or a CR 8 monster to a level 5 party.

Difficult, but not "you are dead unless you cheat".

That's not what the Encounter XP Budgets tell us.

A CR 30 Monster is a Highly Difficult encounter for 8 Level 20 Characters
A CR 15 Monster is a Highly Difficult encounter for 5 Level 10 Characters

 

[Upper_Krust]

Those numbers are quite significant. AC 28 is the point when the dragon becomes more likely to miss than hit. Short of Shield spell, +3 gear or other power-gamey shenanigans, averagely-optimal high level parties aint getting there. AC 25 isn't enough. And you need an AC of around 36 to be reasonably confident the dragon won't hit.

The issue is not that the dragon won't hit, its that it hits front line Martial characters a good bit less than 'stay at the back' Caster types.

Thus its ability to Banish martial characters easily* unevenly weakens the Party's fragility.

*Unless they have Cha Proficiency saves or the Fighter's 2024 Indomitable (power creep)

Additionally, pitting the Dragon against the character with the lowest AC and lowest Hit Points and saying it can drop them if everything hits, is no indicator of the dragon being that sort of threat to the average PC - which, I would argue it needs to be to represent an actual threat to Epic Tier characters.