D&D (2024) Check Out The New Monster Manual’s Ancient Gold Dragon

Wizards of the Coast has previewed (part of) the stat block for one of its iconic monsters on social media. Take a look!

 

[MonsterEnvy]

so then what are they supposed to do? just bat around some hitpoints for 3 rounds and then die?

Again this is a fight 7 CR higher than the players, if the dragon cannot even drop a PC in a round let alone kill them....than there is no real fight.

The PC's also can't drop the Dragon in a single round generally. Them not being able to wipe each other the second the fight starts does not mean there is no real fight.

 

[Stalker0]

The PC's also can't drop the Dragon in a single round generally. Them not being able to wipe each other the second the fight starts does not mean there is no real fight.

Here's another way to put it in context. Take a 5th level party versus a CR12 yuan-ti anathema (which is the same 7 CR higher, and it was the first monster that came up in my list).

The 5th level wizard has 32 hp (with the 14 con). The anathema does 67 DPS when all attacks hit, DOUBLE the wizards hp. So this guy will easily drop a wizard, and with the right crit might even straight up kill him outright. And this snake isn't even legendary, he's just a straight up monster nothing fancy.

That is what 7 CR higher than your party is supposed to look like, DEADLY.


And a few other CR 12:

Enriyes: 66 DPS
Ironscale Hydra: 85 DPS (at CR12, almost as much as the dragon's main attack routine!)
Gith Kithrak: 84 damage

just to show that the anathema is not some fluke.

 

[evildmguy]

I love this discussion! Thanks to all of you!

Where can I find some Epic Hero write ups? I'm not a master of the 5E rules so I don't know what a fighter or barbarian can do in terms of healing themselves. Other than potions. Or some insights into the feats or class abilities that can do this.

I play more Level Up and did run a group in there up to 17th level and they were powerful at that level.

Thanks!

 

[Stalker0]

When people are asking "ok so what should the breath weapon of a CR 24 dragon look like?:..... its something like this:

Fire Breath: Everything in the area takes X damage (Save Y half), and all magic of 6th level or lower is dispelled similar to dispel magic. A creature that is brought to 0 hp by this breath is immediately killed, and if the dragon wishes, their soul is destroyed.

Now THAT's how you make epic players gulp a bit. Death is whatever, attack their magic, attack the soul, now you got some threat.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Here's another way to put it in context. Take a 5th level party versus a CR12 yuan-ti anathema (which is the same 7 CR higher, and it was the first monster that came up in my list).

The 5th level wizard has 32 hp (with the 14 con). The anathema does 67 DPS when all attacks hit, DOUBLE the wizards hp. So this guy will easily drop a wizard, and with the right crit might even straight up kill him outright. And this snake isn't even legendary, he's just a straight up monster nothing fancy.

That is what 7 CR higher than your party is supposed to look like, DEADLY.


And a few other CR 12:

Enriyes: 66 DPS
Ironscale Hydra: 85 DPS (at CR12, almost as much as the dragon's main attack routine!)
Gith Kithrak: 84 damage

just to show that the anathema is not some fluke.

Being multiple CR's ahead is not the be all end all.

A high level character is multiple times stronger than a low level one. A High Difficulty Encounter for 4 Level 5s has a Budget of 4400 XP. A CR 12 Anathema nearly doubles that 8400, it's way beyond what they can handle.

The level 17s have a budget of 46,800. The Dragon's 62,000 is still higher but it does not nearly double that. And the Gold Dragon is capable of defeating fresh level 20s.

 

[NotAYakk]

28x3 = 84
28x2 + 24.5 (GB)
28x2 + Weakening Breath

Making it 2 rends instead of 1 gives us 42 damage per rend.

Still burn a rend for a GB means we'll want a L8 GB (!) or so to keep the damage gap similar.

Multiattack: The dragon makes two rend attacks. It can replace one of the rend effects with a 11d6 Guiding Bolt (L8) or a use of Weakening Breath.

Rend: Melee Attack Roll: +17, 15' reach Hit: 4d8+10 (28) slashing and 4d6(14) fire.

I like the pseudo-simulationist "weapons deal X[W] where X is the size category increment, 1 for M or smaller, 2 for L, 3 for H and 4 for G". As a bonus, when this dragon hits a PC concentrating, they have a DC 21 concentration check (ouch) instead of a DC 14 one. Plus the OA of this dragon got more threatening.

We shouldn't be shackled to the simulationism, but there is little reason not to make the dragon feel simulated.

...

Power in 5e IS NOT EXPONENTIAL. A CR 24 baddie is "really" a CR 30ish (they made post-20 super-scale), but even then it is only 1.5x - akin to a CR3 monster against L2 PCs, or a CR 12 against L8 PCs.

 

[Stalker0]

Being multiple CR's ahead is not the be all end all.

A high level character is multiple times stronger than a low level one. A High Difficulty Encounter for 4 Level 5s has a Budget of 4400 XP. A CR 12 Anathema nearly doubles that 8400, it's way beyond what they can handle.

The level 17s have a budget of 46,800. The Dragon's 62,000 is still higher but it does not nearly double that. And the Gold Dragon is capable of defeating fresh level 20s.

Fair enough, perhaps the Xp comparison is better. So that is ~5,800 xp or CR 10 for that 5th level party.

Ok lets look at a CR 10. hehe oh the irony, first thing I see if the "Young Red Dragon".

And it deals: 46 damage (or 56 with its breath). Wizard is down.


Yochlol: 56 damage
Winter Eldrin: 34 damage (much lower but still enough to drop the wizard)
Stone Golem: 48 damage


So even looking at the same Xp ratio.....the dragon is still not as deadly as its lower CR compatriots in comparison.

And your right that a high level character is multiple times stronger than a low level one. That is why monster that are supposed to out CR such characters have to be multiple times stronger than their lower CR cousins.

 

[Chaosmancer]

i think what you are failing to grasp is… a party is not supposed to fight any monster 10 CR higher than they are.

A 20th level party is not supposed to fight the tarrasque straight up, if they do…yes they are supposed to get obliterated, just as a 10th level party fighting a CR 20 legendary monster should do the same.

That is not a fight the PCS are supposed to just take on. They should bring an artifact or an army or ancient magic magguffin X

At that point, don't put them in the game as a statblock. If they aren't meant to be fought, they shouldn't have a statblock

 

[Frozen_Heart]

At that point, don't put them in the game as a statblock. If they aren't meant to be fought, they shouldn't have a statblock

Or, y'know, acknowledge that some groups have more than 4 players in their party...

If you're running a 7 player game, then a boss monster of matching CR to their level is going to get absolutely stomped.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I get where you are coming from, but tier 4 PC's have so many features and abilities to regain HP, gain temp HP, gain resistances, increace AC, make enemies roll at disadvantage. Having played quite a bit at high level, the average DPR a monster is calculated with, rarely ever makes contact with the PC's.

And even if a PC gets obliterated, they are back up before the start of their next turn anyway because of healing, and they can still action surge and drop 8 attacks with advantage right away.

If you can't stop a tier 4 party from doing their regular play style, the monster will just melt down.

But you haven't played at high level with the current monster designs. Notably, a lot of new monster designs for high CR enemies HAVE increased their damage. I'm not saying they shouldn't have more damage than they did in 2014.

But there are levels here, a spectrum if you will, and I think the sort of attitude that the Breath Weapon of an Ancient Dragon should do so much damage that it is guaranteed to drop a wizard with fire resistance from max hp is too much. That takes us from disrupting the PCs (which can be done in other ways than just more damage) to just slaughtering them wholesale.