cheesy things to do with 2wf

[Someone]

We start with a 1st level fighter with Two weapon fighting and Quickdraw, armed with a long and shortsword. Nothing extraordinary yet.

Said fighter starts his turn threatening an enemy. He quickdraws the longsword, wields it two handed, and declares he´s going to use two weapon fighting this round. IMO, perfectly legal: he could use an narmed attack as his secondary strike.

After he makes his attack with the longsword, he releases his grip with his off hand, (free action), quickdraws his shortsword (free action) and then makes the off hand attack.

This is the part I don´t know if it´s legal; I´ve found nothing in the RAW that disallows it, and after all it´s not so different to TWFing with a two handed weapon and armor spikes, but sure it sounds cheesy.

 

[Space monkey]

I have to agree with you that there is something wrong with that. however since he could have wielded the longsword as a one handed weapon to start with, what does it change. now if he was using a great sword and then releaseing one hand to draw a short sword it would be wrong.

I Guess I see it as this what would have changed if he had drawn both at once, and wielded the longsword one handed, does wielding the longsword two handed give it any bonus.


A cheezy thing to do with two weapon fighting is to load a sling then once it's loaded, draw a short sword and make two attacks. Could that be done using two weaon fighting.

 

[Alzrius]

Wielding a longsword two-handed gives you your Strength bonus multiplied by 1.5 to damage.

That scenario does seem wrong somehow, but I can't think of anything to disallow it, by the RAW.

 

[Bront]

I don't believe you can do this, because both hands are occupied with the first attack, and therefore can't be used again for the off handed attack.

 

[dcollins]

The "release his grip as a free action" doesn't come from the core rules, it comes from the FAQ, and you've given one example of why that's a bad ruling. IMO a character should be forced to retain the same armament profile for a whole round after an attack action (because, in-game-wise, it was supposed to take a whole round in the first place).

 

[Space monkey]

I think it comes down to time. realisticly ypur doing three "free actons" Grab with both hands, release one hand then draw a second weapon.plus the two attacks. and all that in six seconds?

I would think it takes almost that long for the free actions alone never mind the attacks.

 

[Gynsala]

The only thing I can find that kinda refutes this is in the rules for double weapons. They specifically state that "A creature wielding a quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round." To me that says that you have to have both hands on the weapon during the whole attack to gain the TWF bonus. So you'd have to have both hands on any weapon(s) to use TWF during an attack

Just as an extension of the example you gave... if the character has enough daggers on him, dropping the dagger is a free action as well. On the next attack... Drops the dagger (free), puts off hand on the longsword (free), makes first attack, releases grip (free), quickdraws (free), and makes the second attack. That's just getting ridiculous.

 

[Blue]

The "release his grip as a free action" doesn't come from the core rules, it comes from the FAQ, and you've given one example of why that's a bad ruling. IMO a character should be forced to retain the same armament profile for a whole round after an attack action (because, in-game-wise, it was supposed to take a whole round in the first place).

I agree that it's fishy, but don't agree with the same armament profile. For instance, you could start a trip with a weapon, fail, get counter-tripped, and loose the weapon. This does not end your attack sequence - you could attack (or trip) unarmed, you could quickdraw, etc.

Heck, normal thrown weapons (quickdrawing them again) will give you a different weapon for every single attack, and they could be a mix - a +1 dagger, silver throwing axe, and masterwork javelin is a valid mix for throwing three weapons.

Back to the original abuse, I think the feeling of unease comes from using both hands on multiple weapons. But as I've mentioned above, this seems viable in the rules. But this still feels cheesy.

One question that it brings up is "what order do your attacks happen?", which I don't thik is defined. Because the 2-hands on the longsword trick only works before drawing the short sword.

By the RAW, it seems allowable. It means that with the quickdraw feat and using a non-light weapon in your on hand, the first round you two-weapon fight you get a bonus of 1/2 of strength on a few attacks. Nothing gamebreaking, though annying. I personally would frown on in in my games (and yes, I've called other players cheezy to their face for doing abusive stuff.)

Cheers,
=Blue

 

[Alzrius]

The "release his grip as a free action" doesn't come from the core rules, it comes from the FAQ, and you've given one example of why that's a bad ruling. IMO a character should be forced to retain the same armament profile for a whole round after an attack action (because, in-game-wise, it was supposed to take a whole round in the first place).

There's nothing in the core rules about either releasing one hand from a weapon, changing a weapon between hands, or putting a free hand on a weapon, that I've found (in fact, I posted a similar problem a few months ago, of could a wizard release one hand from a two-handed weapon to cast a spell, and then put the hand back on the weapon when done). Of the three actions I just listed, the first one, releasing one hand from a weapon, seems like it should definately be a free action; if dropping the weapon is, then letting one hand go should be too, IMHO.

There is a problem with the scenario outlined in Someone's post, but I don't think the letting go with one hand is the crux of it. My personal ruling would be to say that the character doesn't get the 1.5x Strength bonus on that first attack - the in-game rationale would be something like, if his off-hand was about to let go to draw a shortsword, it wasn't wielding the longsword properly enough to gain the bonus.

 

[Tatsukun]

The "release his grip as a free action" doesn't come from the core rules, it comes from the FAQ, and you've given one example of why that's a bad ruling. IMO a character should be forced to retain the same armament profile for a whole round after an attack action (because, in-game-wise, it was supposed to take a whole round in the first place).

I think he's talking about just dropping the long sword, that's a free action by RAW.

I don't see a big deal with this, it's not as powerful as TWF with a greatsword and armor spikes.

-Tatsu