Chill Touch

[Camarath]

On page 141, it says (in the context of touching targets in the same round you cast the spell): "You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll." This clearly limits the number of touches you get to make in the same round that you cast the spell to ONE.

This sentence is dealing with whether or not one needs to make an attack roll to touch a friend or one's self. The "one" limits the number of friends one can touch with one touch attempt not the number of touch attempts one may make as part of a spell.

Look, it's really quite simple: there's one interpretation that is consistent with all of the known rules, and it's not the one you're making.

Consistent with all of the known rules?

PHB Page 175 "You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell."

You need to read the rules more carefully, my friend.

Please address these two rule quotes and explain how they square with your assertion that you may only touch one target when casting a spell.

PHB p175 "You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell."

PHB p176 "Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.".

 

[Borlon]

What exactly is being argued here? That the only way you can get more than 1 attack out of chilling touch is if you have a number of willing targets nearby?

Man, I'd hate to be a necromancer in that campaign.

 

[Camarath]

What exactly is being argued here? That the only way you can get more than 1 attack out of chilling touch is if you have a number of willing targets nearby?

The issue of contention as I see it is over whether one may make more than one touch attack or attempt as part of a spell's effect. I believe that in the case of Chill Touch the caster may make one touch attack per caster level as part of the same action as casting the spell (as per the rule on page 176). I do not think that the targets need to be willing. The other rule quote is to support my argument that there is no limit on the number of touchs one may make as an effect of casting a spell but it does not directly affect Chill Touch because Chill Touch does not require willing targets.

There is also discussion over if one can hold the charge with Chill Touch and if casting additional spells disrupts Chill Touch. (That is not the issue I am addressing in My posts.)

 

[Infiniti2000]

I do not think that the targets need to be willing. The other rule quote is to support my argument that there is no limit on the number of touchs one may make as an effect of casting a spell but it does not directly affect Chill Touch because Chill Touch does not require willing targets.

But that other rule quote (p175 as you note) specifically only applies to willing targets. So, unless the targets of the chill touch are willing, then it's totally irrelevant. More importantly, what rule allows you to touch multiple targets? Is it your contention that this sentence indirectly (it's clearly not direct) allows someone to touch multiple targets in the same round as part of casting the spell? If so, please explain the descrepancy with regard to the rule "...up to six friends as a full-round action."

The issue of contention as I see it is over whether one may make more than one touch attack or attempt as part of a spell's effect. I believe that in the case of Chill Touch the caster may make one touch attack per caster level as part of the same action as casting the spell (as per the rule on page 176).

Taken by itself, you have a point. But, it still violates other rules, specifically "You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll." You touch one friend as part of the spell. You have to make an attack roll versus enemies. How many attack rolls do you get per round, especially in a round that you take a standard action to cast spell (or even consider a quickened chill touch)? Also, keep in mind that this rule (you mention p176) is specifically about "Touch Spells and Holding the Charge." If you utilize this rule and choose the interpretation that you'll be holding the charge on a chill touch, then you must abide by the rules on holding the charge. Two more quotes on that regard:

"If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges."

"If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates."

 

[ARandomGod]

Since you said that this is the most important point, I'll concentrate on it. In fact, the rules under Duration give a "clear" definition of discharge.

Discharge
Occasionally a spells lasts for a set duration or until triggered or discharged.

So, what's the duration? Instantaneous. Unlike any other multi-touch spell.

So, when is it triggered or discharged? For one thing, it sucks that the definition uses the same word. I think you'll agree, though, that the spell ends when either condition holds true. To beg the question (and I beg your pardon), doesn't the spell trigger when you touch the first opponent?

Well, a definition of a word that includes the word as a part of it's definition isn't really a definition at all, let alone a clear one (So I agree with you there. ^_^ ). And that definition seems to imply to me the same thing as the dictionary defintion I gave, admittedly in part because the SRD definition there uses the word to define itself...

However as to your question of what's the duration. It looks like it's instantanious to me . It's an instant duration spell that continuously effects you until you've touched one creature per level... Although I can certainly see there a potential for a second touch on the same creature with the same casting of that spell not affecting the creature a second time ... like Flesh to Stone is an instant duration spell that continuously effects the target until broken by Break Enchantment or Stone to Flesh (or more powerful magics). Interestingly enough, this closer look has lead me to say that this spell isn't affected by Dispel magic. It would take Break Enchantment to "dispell" it! Of course, that's really pretty clear, but I'd never looked at that aspect before.

Anyhow... "doesn't the spell trigger when you touch your first target"?
Yes. However this isn't a hold the charge type spell, it's not built to follow those rules, instead it's an instant effect that lasts for one target per caster level. Otherwise it wouldn't be able to affect multiple opponents even if you did have two BAB attacks per round and were affected by haste (for three attacks).

Actually, that question proves my point. Yes, it would indeed discharge when you touched your first target... the first target that round, and it would be impossible for it to affect multiple targets under that rules-set. However, under targets the spell reads:

Targets: Creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)

Indicating that it CAN affect more that one target as is. Hence it must not follow the rules for 'holding the charge'.

 

[Murrdox]

What ARandomGod said.

Nowhere in Chill Touch's spell description does it say that you have to "Hold the Charge" in order to use it to make additional attacks. The spell description itself specifically says that you can make 1 chill touch attack per caster level. Holding the Charge has nothing to do with Chill Touch.

Furthermore, the rules for touching multiple allies don't apply, because this is an ATTACK spell, and not a beneficial spell cast upon willing allies, like Teleport. You must make Chill Touch's as ATTACKS.

Those that have indicated that the wizard would have to expend all the chill touches in one round by using the Full Attack option seem to be ignoring that this means a level 5 wizard will have 5 chill touch attacks, but only one melee attack per round, which means they could only ever use 1 chill touch, barring an ability which let them attack multiple times per round at level 5. A level 20 wizard would have 20 chill touches, but wouldn't be able to come close to using all of them. Because this scenario is illogical, it is safe to say this is not what the spell means.

I still say that a level 20 Wizard gets 20 chill touch attacks, even if those attacks are hours apart. Also I don't see anything to indicate that casting another spell disrupts Chill Touch, just like casting another spell doesn't disrupt Bull's Strength.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I still say that a level 20 Wizard gets 20 chill touch attacks, even if those attacks are hours apart.

Hours? Why not days or weeks or years? By your interpretation, a wizard should always have chill touch active. Since you're not following the rules for 'holding the charge' you don't have any of the downsides, such as accidentally discharging it on an ally. Just cast chill touch on an 'off' day and then you're always considered armed.

Right?

 

[Murrdox]

If you want to have Chill Touch active for years then that is perfectly fine.

The tradeoff is that you can never touch any living thing without discharging the spell, and that your hands are constantly glowing.

Only a hermit with no familiar would be able to use Chill Touch in such a way.

Plus while Chill Touch doesn't prevent you from casting other spells... if a Wizard has Chill Touch active, and then casts Teleport, he would effectively Chill Touch all of his allies at the same time he was teleporting them. Thus, if the wizard was planning on casting any beneficial touch spells, he would need to be careful about dismissing Chill Touch. One does not need to go to "holding the charge" rules for accidental discharge. The spell description itself says "a touch from your hand". There is nothing there that distinguishes between friend and foe.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The tradeoff is that you can never touch any living thing without discharging the spell...

Why's that? As I pointed out, if you are not applying the rules on holding a charge, then what you state clearly does not happen.

 

[Murrdox]

Why's that? As I pointed out, if you are not applying the rules on holding a charge, then what you state clearly does not happen.

A touch from your hand, which glows with blue energy, disrupts the life force of living creatures. Each touch channels negative energy that deals 1d6 points of damage

Basically any living thing that you touch takes 1d6 negative energy damage. If that doesn't allow for accidental discharge, I don't know what does.