Cityscape ToC

[glass]

They don't have their own eco-systems. No city that has ever stood on the face of the Earth could feed itself without the addition of the countryside, and having one in fantasy would be a unique fantasy construct of its own. Cities only feed themselves by organized influence on the environment, civilization. That doesn't, to me, suggest anything like a druid.

What does not feeding themselves have to do with anything?

But if it works for you, fly with it. As for me, I find the concept conceptually problematic and was glad not to see any precious page space squandered on such a concept.

Maybe, were there something about urban rangers and druids in the book, a talented writer like Ari would be able to do a better job of selling you on the concept than I am.


glass.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

They don't have their own eco-systems.

Yes, they do, or else there wouldn't be pigeons flying all over the place - or mice invading my apartment from time to time, for that matter. There are lots of beings living in a city - humans not neccessarily the most numerous among them.

No city that has ever stood on the face of the Earth could feed itself without the addition of the countryside, and having one in fantasy would be a unique fantasy construct of its own. Cities only feed themselves by organized influence on the environment, civilization. That doesn't, to me, suggest anything like a druid.

Humans aren't the only creatures that shape the environment to suit them. Take ants, for example - they build vast mounds, take food from a large territory, and even "farm" other animals for the purpose of gaining food! Is this unnatural, too?

From a certain perspective - which urban druids might have - humans represent just another hive entity that happens to be larger than most. And like other ecosystems, it might need tending to - pruning the bad parts, and encouraging the growth of more useful areas...

 

[Psion]

Yes, they do,

Not in isolation from a larger ecosystem, it doesn't.

Cut a city off from its grain/grocery store shipments, and see how fast the inhabitants die.

Viewed as part of a larger ecosystem, sure, I can see it. Deserving a whole core class devoted to it, though? Nah, I don't see it. A prestige class at best. I certainly think that a desert druid or aquatic druid or frost druid is just as deserving, and I don't think those deserve their own core class, either.

From a certain perspective - which urban druids might have - humans represent just another hive entity that happens to be larger than most.

Cities maintain their food chain through the establishment or organization and civilization. To me, this lies inherently at odds with concepts of wildness that lies at the core of the concept of a druid.

 

[Psion]

What does not feeding themselves have to do with anything?

That's the whole "food chain" part of the eco-system thing.

Maybe, were there something about urban rangers and druids in the book, a talented writer like Ari would be able to do a better job of selling you on the concept than I am.

Why do I need to be "sold" on it? It's not a good fit with what I see the druid representing, and consider a druid to represent something at odds with civilization, and by extension, city-dwellers. Is it not well enough that I could find something else to enjoy than forcing ideas down my throat that I'm not going to swallow?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Not in isolation from a larger ecosystem, it doesn't.

Cut a city off from its grain/grocery store shipments, and see how fast the inhabitants die.

Sort of like an ant hill or termite mound.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Not in isolation from a larger ecosystem, it doesn't.

Cut a city off from its grain/grocery store shipments, and see how fast the inhabitants die.

The only ecosystem on Earth that could be considered to exist in "isolation" from other ecosystems are the microbe in Lake Vostok. That's that huge lake in the Antarctis that's buried under massive glaciers, if you must know.

Apart from that, every ecosystem on Earth is connected to every other.

Is it really that much of a stretch to see druids tending to a particular city than druids dending to a particular expanse of forest or desert?

Viewed as part of a larger ecosystem, sure, I can see it. Deserving a whole core class devoted to it, though? Nah, I don't see it. A prestige class at best. I certainly think that a desert druid or aquatic druid or frost druid is just as deserving, and I don't think those deserve their own core class, either.

I was never arguing about that in the first place - and for the record, I dislike the proliferation of prestige and core classes. Personally, I'd prefer to leave it at specialized skill selections and feats appropriate for them.

Cities maintain their food chain through the establishment or organization and civilization. To me, this lies inherently at odds with concepts of wildness that lies at the core of the concept of a druid.

From a certain point of view, "wilderness" is just a word that people in the cities made up so that they can feel better than environment outside of the gates.

But what is an ecosystem, really? A multitude of life forms interacting in numerous ways, each looking out for its own self-interest but yet creating a vastly more complex whole in the process.

But the exact same thing can be said about cities. Druids living in urban environments might simply say that humans claiming that they are better than animals is hubris, since their societies are forming just another ecosystem - and the whole is much more complex than its individual parts. Their supposed intelligence does little to truly understand the environment they live in - they all are just focussed on their own little part of it, while ignoring the rest.

But urban druids might just be the ones who grasp the whole - and who might be able to shape it.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Urban Rangers exist as a separate class in many campaigns because Tracking, specifically, doesn't work very well in cities and to a lesser extent, Favored Enemy is either grossly overpowered or underpowered.

For Urban Druids, it's more of a spell list issue, IMO. The Dragon Compendium one has a bunch of great and flavorful spells, but just dumping those on the regular druid spell list makes that class too watered-down for the taste of many, while the regular druid spell list is famously less useful in urban environments.

Now, it's probably OK with a lot of folks to have some classes be suboptimal in certain environments -- no one really gets that upset about characters in heavy armor making different choices when aboard a ship -- but others want the option to have both hunters of men in an urban environment and those mystically tied to the city itself represented. This is an especially big issue for campaigns that are almost entirely taking place within a city such as Ptolus, Urbis, the CSIO or other such locales.

 

[Psion]

The only ecosystem on Earth that could be considered to exist in "isolation" from other ecosystems are the microbe in Lake Vostok.

Apart from that, every ecosystem on Earth is connected to every other.

Precisely.

This is, in part, why I don't see a druid needing to be greatly different just because they dwell in the city.

Is it really that much of a stretch to see druids tending to a particular city than druids dending to a particular expanse of forest or desert?

Not at all. I just don't see the niche of such a character being so broad that they need their own special druid variant any more than desert or forest.

I was never arguing about that in the first place - and for the record, I dislike the proliferation of prestige and core classes. Personally, I'd prefer to leave it at specialized skill selections and feats appropriate for them.

As would I, so I am confused about what your point is.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

As would I, so I am confused about what your point is.

Hmmm... Perhaps there was just a misunderstanding:

To me, an "urban druid" is a druid who just happens to have cities as his domain.

To you, an "urband druid" is a variant druid class.

 

[Psion]

Hmmm... Perhaps there was just a misunderstanding:

To me, an "urban druid" is a druid who just happens to have cities as his domain.

To you, an "urband druid" is a variant druid class.

In the context of this thread, yeah.