Clarification on Superior Cover

As a matter of fact, I don't agree with the rules for ranged attacks only ever granting cover as opposed to superior cover. But it's a specific rule.

However there is no such specific rule, stating if you should immediately take away stealth from your players, which to me seems overly harsh. That is why I am posting in these forums to get your guys' opinions.

I also think you might be coming off as a little hostile, but again, what I want to do is arrive at conensus that provides deep gameplay while following the rules.

So I would like to know do you think the compromise I proposed is legal, and thus usable in a by-the-book D&D game?
 
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As a matter of fact, I don't agree with the rules for ranged attacks only ever granting cover as opposed to superior cover. But it's a specific rule.

However there is no such specific rule, stating if you should immediately take away stealth from your players, which to me seems overly harsh. That is why I am posting in these forums to get your guys' opinions.
Well, there pretty much is. It's the quote this whole thread has been talking about. It may be disagreeable to you, but it certainly is specific.

I also think you might be coming off as a little hostile, but again, what I want to do is arrive at conensus that provides deep gameplay while following the rules.

So I would like to know do you think the compromise I proposed is legal, and thus usable in a by-the-book D&D game?
My apologies.

The compromise brings up the, more important in my eyes and glossed over in this topic, whether allies can count as superior cover. If so, then yes, your compromise is legal and usable in a by-the-book D&D game. In my eyes, no, allies cannot be used to create superior cover because I believe it doesn't make sense that ranged attacks would only get cover but your sight is impaired to superior cover.

I'm not sure which is the better answer to a rules-lawyer, but that's what I would do in my games. Good luck finding a consensus, and good gaming. (No one has actually used stealth in combat, given the wealth of other options for obtaining combat advantage. And that's fine by me really, combats don't need to take any more time.)
 

My apologies

None needed :)

The compromise brings up the, more important in my eyes and glossed over in this topic, whether allies can count as superior cover. If so, then yes, your compromise is legal and usable in a by-the-book D&D game. In my eyes, no, allies cannot be used to create superior cover because I believe it doesn't make sense that ranged attacks would only get cover but your sight is impaired to superior cover.

Ok, forgive if I am wrong, but aren't you using the same type of reasoning I was using (and got very heavily crticized for)?

Essentially you're saying "it's not consistent with another rule" and it "doesn't make sense."

You can't play both sides of the coin here...

As far I can tell, I have satisfied the rulebook "to the letter," so please tell me, does it or not?
 

Essentially you're saying "it's not consistent with another rule" and it "doesn't make sense."

You can't play both sides of the coin here...
I sure can. I'm not claiming to be following the letter of the law, I'm saying that's my personal ruling. I don't care if it's in the rulebooks or if its a house rule.

The real reason is because on this issue there is an actual inconsistency, not just something you find that doesn't make sense to you. The situation is like this: you want to attack something that, when you draw your lines from your best corner, has superior cover according to this: "If three or four of those lines are blocked but you have line of effect, the target has superior cover," because there is another enemy or group of enemies in the way. It doesn't explicitly say that for the three or four line case that creatures should be taken into account, but there is an implication. The bullet directly above that says "When you make a ranged attack against an enemy and other enemies are in the way, your target has cover." The rules say that when making this ranged attack, the defender will have cover and superior cover. That is internally inconsistent.

If you decide that the "Creatures and Cover" section only applies to ranged attacks and "Determining Cover" applies to everything else: when you shoot an arrow, the target will have cover, but when determining stealth, or anything else besides attacking, that target will have superior cover. If that was the intention, it doesn't make any intuitive sense. Is this your argument? In a sense, yes, but I disagreed from the beginning that hiding behind allies is realistic or intuitive or made sense. I didn't disagree with your method, just your substance. Do you think that ranged attacks only having cover but sight having superior cover makes sense?

To add to that reasoning, the stealth errata makes it clear to me that creatures aren't meant to provide superior cover. Because like you said the situation where you suddenly lose stealth is ridiculous. But it's not ridiculous if you never could have stealth in the first place from creature cover alone. I feel that this ruling actually does give the designers credit, because the ridiculous situation you point out actually doesn't occur, and there are no leaps such as the one that you make that you only risk becoming unhidden when 'conditions change,' which as you can tell from the general board response, is unprecedented in the actual rules.

This doesn't change anything we were talking about before, however. The previous discussion was whether or not you could maintain stealth by only having an ally/allies giving you cover, which is a clear "NO" from the stealth errata, no matter if those allies were precariously used to give you stealth in the first place, or if you stealthed over from behind a wall, or whatever. You simply cannot maintain stealth from the cover an ally alone, by the rules. There is no inconsistency on this point.

As far I can tell, I have satisfied the rulebook "to the letter," so please tell me, does it or not?
I don't believe allies can create superior cover, so no, it does not. The next guy will say yes, it does. This part of the rule is up to interpretation. See above. Whether you can maintain stealth behind an ally is most certainly not, if the response here on this board is any indication to you of that.

So, to be clear, I'm not playing two sides of the same coin. I'm playing tails on one coin and heads on another. Actually, I don't like this analogy. The point is, these are entirely different issues (maintaining cover behind allies and whether allies provide superior cover), and I feel that my ruling wraps things up nicely.
 

I also thought alliesa can´t provide superior cover because they don´t really fill the whole 5ft square... but as mentioned... you can´t really get a good shot at a target behind one person (cover) and behind a shield wall you really can´t acquire a target at all (you can hope to get a chance shot through it... (superior cover)

If a shot is coming from behind a shield wall (lower shields suddenly and fire, you have more difficulties to react... granting combat advantage)

You can´t remain hidden behind a shield wall... the enemy knows that you are there and remains aware of you, but i believe you can get some sneaky shots out...

so this IMHO is a pefect application of stealth vs perception. Or anything vs perception... but stealth sounds the most logical to me...

The old rules allowed a stealth check for everything you try to do stealthily... so why not a ranged attack? And i believe the new rules are more for clarification than for nerf...

although the nerf is: it costs you a move action to dive into cover before you get the shot out...

I am still thinking that beeing invisible and silent for more than a split second in the open is unreasonable, except when the allies in front actively block sight to you by using large shields (like policemen) and employing trained tactics... (maybe some feats)
 

Because allies weren't meant to provide superior cover. Refer to the picture and "creatures and cover" on page 280.
I must say I love the discussion, but I've seen this thing referenced twice now and need to ask. I what way does page 280 (PHB) show that creatures aren't supposed to give superior cover?
 

What puzzles me is why Wizards don't use their Errata or forums or DDI to clarify this kind of questions? Designers can't agree among them and post?
 


Hello Oldtimer and avin, thanks for joining in..

To fuzzle,

I sure can. I'm not claiming to be following the letter of the law, I'm saying that's my personal ruling. I don't care if it's in the rulebooks or if its a house rule.

So you are saying it follows the rules, but you don't agree with it? Trust me, I know where you are coming from, but as I have been harped on quite sharply: "that is irrevalent to a rules discussion".

So I'm going to say that's a 'yes' to my question of whether it is legal.

To recap again, my proposition is:
Ally can grant superior cover for a stealth check, but you simultaneously need a non-ally source of concealment/cover to stay hidden.
This follow directly from the rules:

(Refer to the opening post, for an indepth look at steps 1 & 2):
1) The rules for Determining Cover state allies grant cover or superior cover based on the number of lines of sight blocked from an enemy.
2) The Stealth rules say that superior cover is a sufficient condition to start a hide check.
3) If you succeed the check, by the literal interpretation of the rules, you must start to apply the Remaining Hidden rules instantly.
4) The Remaining Hidden rules state that having some form of concealment/cover (other than creatures) is sufficient to be counted as kept out of sight. Provided you also stay silent, don't move 3+ sqaures, and don't attack, you remain hidden.

Very clear, logical and literal. Just to make it absolutely clear, let's go back to original example:



If the green square which Elly the Ranger is standing has concealment (or she is under the effect of concealment from say a power) then if she succeeds her stealth check she is hidden. Done.

Now please everyone, state your opinion and comments, but also state "Yes or No" if this is legal, so we can all arrive a useful conclusion, that people can apply to a by-the-book D&D game.
 
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legal.[/I]
Uh, no. Maybe that one part of my post can be spun to say that. I'm saying I think it's illegal, but the next guy will think it's legal. Because there really is an inconsistency in the rules. It's simultaneously legal and illegal because... well, please read my previous post. A ranged attack can have cover and superior cover based on two different sections of the cover section.

@Oldtimer: the picture on page 280 shows lines drawn from someone's square to corners of other creatures squares. Notice, how if you draw lines from that corner to every corner of the troll in the back's square, that he "should" have superior cover. Because 3 of them are blocked. But, he only has cover. This is because of the "Creatures and Cover" section. No matter how many lines are blocked, creatures can only provide "Cover" not "Superior Cover." The only place it is implied otherwise is in "Determining Cover," but the stealth errata makes it clear to me that allies cannot function as superior cover, because you can't remain hidden behind allies. If standing diagonally behind an ally (in a roomy five-foot space mind you) was just as good as cover as an arrow slit, I think they would say stealthing behind them was just fine.

However, even without the stealth errata though, it seems clear that they meant creatures only to provide normal cover. Stealth errata just really seals the RAI, for me.
 

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