D&D 5E Classes, and the structure of DPR

[clearstream]

In another thread (on monks) I mentioned some analysis I'd recently done on class progression, relating to how they increase their DPR. It may be of general interest so I will post it here.

1. All classes have step increases in DPR at 5th and 11th level. There are no exceptions.
2. The design intent appears to be roughly they do 1x their base attack in tier 1, 2x in tier 2, and 3x in tier 3.

The interesting part is how different classes achieve this. There are three kinds of scaling

• Some classes get another attack (fighters, warlocks using EB)
• Other classes get another die per attack (paladins, most casters in their cantrips, rogue sneak attack)
• A few get a sub-class feature that boosts their DPR expectation (monk, ranger)

That can be simplified to two approaches - either A) get another attack, or B) get more damage on your attacks. Fighters are A, monks are B. That gives the designers the ability to create some fundamental diversity in approaches to combat.

My view is that the use of sub-classes to boost DPR expectation is on the one hand quite interesting, while on the other hand noticeably problematic. As an example of how it can be interesting, compare the ranger Volley, Stalker's Flurry, Distant Strike, and Fey Reinforcements. These are all imaginative ways to add to DPR expectation. They're also a good example of how sub-class features can be underwhelming, or at least uneven. For further comparison, monks gain part of their 11th level DPR step in their martial die, and the other part in their sub-class feature.

What makes this even further interesting is that I noticed that at certain steps where other classes scaled offense, one or two - like ranger - gained something defensive. I suspect that the consistent undervaluing of defenses in theorycrafting probably leads to some underestimation of these classes' effectiveness in play.

In the end, I found that calculating the value of the barbarian hit die in ASIs, and then using that to assess the total value of features in each tier, showed a very intentional approach to the design. Some classes stand out as front loaded, others gain more as they go along. Diversity seemed consciously designed in. One can also see how - for the usual campaign (capping out at low-tier-3) - multiclassing is imbalanced. No real surprise. If there is enough interest I can tidy up my spreadsheet and post the progression structure as I analysed it.


[EDIT I'd like to draw attention to my posts from the bottom of page 4, which concretely develop this investigation.]

 

[Scribe]

If there is enough interest I can tidy up my spreadsheet and post the progression structure as I analysed it.

I'd love to see it.

 

[dave2008]

I'd love to see it.

I will second that! Please post it if you have the time.

 

[ECMO3]

1. All classes have step increases in DPR at 5th and 11th level. There are no exceptions

• Some classes get another attack (fighters, warlocks using EB)
• Other classes get another die per attack (paladins, most casters in their cantrips, rogue sneak attack)
• A few get a sub-class feature that boosts their DPR expectation (monk, ranger)

That can be simplified to two approaches - either A) get another attack, or B) get more damage on your attacks. Fighters are A, monks are B. That gives the designers the ability to create some fundamental diversity in approaches to combat.

Your premise and some of your supporting argueents are incorrect.

First Rogues get many smaller steps, not steps at 5th and 11th.

Second Rangers and Monk subclasses do not all get a step increase in damage at 11th level. Some subclasses get a damage bonus, but others don't and those that do for the most part do not get a step that takes them from 2x base to 3xbase. In many cases it is about 1 point of extra damage per turn.

Finally Monks (and Paladins and Rangers) get extra attacks at 5th level, not a boost

 

[Charlaquin]

Your premise and some of your supporting argueents are incorrect.

Seems about right to me.

First Rogues get many smaller steps, not steps at 5th and 11th.

But they keep up with the step increases other classes get.

Second Rangers and Monk subclasses do not all get a step increase in damage at 11th level. Some subclasses get a damage bonus, but others don't and those that do for the most part do not get a step that takes them from 2x base to 3xbase. In many cases it is about 1 point of extra damage per turn.

Remember that monks are also getting a martial arts die size increase at 11th, which accounts for part of their step increase, the other part being from subclass. Some subclasses are still below par though. Similarly, most ranger subclasses don’t give enough of a damage increase at 11th.

Finally Monks (and Paladins and Rangers) get extra attacks at 5th level, not a boost

Right, but all three get boosts at 11th rather than an additional extra attack.

 

[ECMO3]

Remember that monks are also getting a martial arts die size increase at 11th, which accounts for part of their step increase, the other part being from subclass. Some subclasses are still below par though. Similarly, most ranger subclasses don’t give enough of a damage increase at 11th.

The extra martial arts die is worth 1 point of damage per turn as is the increase in many of the Ranger subclasses. That is nowhere near going from 2x base to 3x base.

The other thing to mention is the full casters and while their cantrips are scaling exactly to 2xDPR and 3xDPR, they are using them less, so their DPR will generally go down from tier 2 to tier 3 as they cast more spells and use less cantrips. Not necessarily true for a blaster mage or a bladesinger but it is true for most caster builds, it can be true for Rangers as well if your build is more of a Gish Ranger that uses a lot of spells as opposed to a primarily martial Ranger.

 

[TheOneGargoyle]

In another thread (on monks) I mentioned some analysis I'd recently done on class progression, relating to how they increase their DPR. It may be of general interest so I will post it here.

1. All classes have step increases in DPR at 5th and 11th level. There are no exceptions.
2. The design intent appears to be roughly they do 1x their base attack in tier 1, 2x in tier 2, and 3x in tier 3.

I don't understand your basis for claiming this.

From 5th level to 11th level, almost all base classes get significant and similar damage boosts:
* fighters gain an extra attack boosting their dmg by approx 9.5 (1d8+5),
* rogues gain 3d6 SA dmg for an avg boost of 10.5,
* paladins gain approx 2d8 with Imp Divine Smite and higher spell slots and more of them for an avg boost of about 9.0,
* warlocks gain 1d10+5 for approx 10.5 dmg increase,
* all pure casters get 3 levels higher spell slots and more of them increasing dmg output by much more than 10 pts.
So this would suggest that the bar for these "Step Increases" is at around 10 pts per round.

Monks between 5th and 11th level gain +1 dmg per round on avg (d6->d8), or +2 if they flurry. This is not remotely close to +10 dmg. Do you classify such a small incremental increase as a "step increase" ? I would think not.

The interesting part is how different classes achieve this. There are three kinds of scaling

• Some classes get another attack (fighters, warlocks using EB)
• Other classes get another die per attack (paladins, most casters in their cantrips, rogue sneak attack)
• A few get a sub-class feature that boosts their DPR expectation (monk, ranger)

So, for this theory to be right, two things would need to be true at these level ranges (say from L5 - L11):
1) monks would need to get the remainder of a similar sort of dps boost from all (or the very least, the vast majority) of their subclasses, and
2) other classes subclasses would need to give no (or extremely minor) dmg boosts

Let's fact-check to see if these 2 things hold true:
1) monk subclasses - 5 of them give no dmg boost whatsoever (Long Death, Mercy, Open Hand, Shadow, Ascendant Dragon), 5 of them give a small dmg boost (Astral Self extra MA die ~+4.5, Drunken Master occasionally avoid disadv, Four Elements spend 1 more ki on a spell, Kensei +1 or +2 more than existing magic weapon, Sun Soul situationally Sunburst might do more dmg), and precisely zero subclasses give a boost which would make up the 8-9 pts they would need to equal the other classes.

2) other classes subclasses
- fighter: 6 give dmg boosts (arcane archer, PDK, battlemaster, EK, psi-warrior, rune knight) and 4 don't (cavalier, champion, echo knight, samurai), so more subclasses give dmg boosts than for monk !
- rogue: 3 give dmg boosts (arcane trickster, phantom, soulknife) and 6 don't (assassin, inquisitive, mastermind, scout, swashbuckler, thief), so even with sneak attack boosts every 2 levels in the base class, a third of rogue subclasses give dmg boosts on top of this !
- paladin: 4 give dmg boosts (crown, glory, vengeance, oathbreaker) and 5 don't (ancients, conquest, devotion, redemption, watchers), so approx half give dmg boost !
- warlock: 3 give dmg boosts (celestial, hexblade, undead), 6 don't (archfey, fathomless, fiend, genie, GOO, undying) so a third of warlock subclasses give dmg boosts, and that's without factoring in 2 extra invocations which can potentially give damage boosts too (sometimes depending on pact) such as Eldritch Spear, Maddening Hex, Pact of the Talisman, Superior Pact Weapon, etc.

So, verdict:
1) False.
2) False.

My view is that the use of sub-classes to boost DPR expectation is on the one hand quite interesting, while on the other hand noticeably problematic. As an example of how it can be interesting, compare the ranger Volley, Stalker's Flurry, Distant Strike, and Fey Reinforcements. These are all imaginative ways to add to DPR expectation. They're also a good example of how sub-class features can be underwhelming, or at least uneven. For further comparison, monks gain part of their 11th level DPR step in their martial die, and the other part in their sub-class feature.

As shown above, other classes subclasses give DPR boosts too, so this is just .... false ?

 

[clearstream]

I don't understand your basis for claiming this.

From 5th level to 11th level, almost all base classes get significant and similar damage boosts:
* fighters gain an extra attack boosting their dmg by approx 9.5 (1d8+5),

At 5th level they gain an extra attack, at 11th level they gain an extra attack. These are the step increases I am thinking of. Can you clarify what you don't understand?

Perhaps it will be clearer if I introduce the term reference-structure? So we desire diversity, but the diversity is cohered - balanced a-priori - against the reference structure.

* rogues gain 3d6 SA dmg for an avg boost of 10.5,
* paladins gain approx 2d8 with Imp Divine Smite and higher spell slots and more of them for an avg boost of about 9.0,
* warlocks gain 1d10+5 for approx 10.5 dmg increase,
* all pure casters get 3 levels higher spell slots and more of them increasing dmg output by much more than 10 pts.
So this would suggest that the bar for these "Step Increases" is at around 10 pts per round.

It's true that the picture in detail is more complicated, I am precising the general structure the designers are using. There is a progression in DPR, and it is steppy, with noticeable steps for for all classes at 5th and 11th level (and later of course, but I am focusing on the most played tiers.)

Your premise and some of your supporting argueents are incorrect.

First Rogues get many smaller steps, not steps at 5th and 11th.

Second Rangers and Monk subclasses do not all get a step increase in damage at 11th level. Some subclasses get a damage bonus, but others don't and those that do for the most part do not get a step that takes them from 2x base to 3xbase. In many cases it is about 1 point of extra damage per turn.

Finally Monks (and Paladins and Rangers) get extra attacks at 5th level, not a boost

An extra attack is a step. Rogues do spread their increases out more than other classes, but the overall transition (increase in DPR) is by design about the same.

Monks between 5th and 11th level gain +1 dmg per round on avg (d6->d8), or +2 if they flurry. This is not remotely close to +10 dmg. Do you classify such a small incremental increase as a "step increase" ? I would think not.

Take a look at this baseline versus the monk from a Treantmonk video. This is how a monk using their flurry of blows looks against a warlock using EB+AB+Hex (Treantmonk's baseline). When you graph expected DPR you will see something similar to this for every class. Look where the 'step increases' are occurring - 5th and 11th.

So, for this theory to be right, two things would need to be true at these level ranges (say from L5 - L11):
1) monks would need to get the remainder of a similar sort of dps boost from all (or the very least, the vast majority) of their subclasses, and
2) other classes subclasses would need to give no (or extremely minor) dmg boosts

Let's fact-check to see if these 2 things hold true:
1) monk subclasses - 5 of them give no dmg boost whatsoever (Long Death, Mercy, Open Hand, Shadow, Ascendant Dragon), 5 of them give a small dmg boost (Astral Self extra MA die ~+4.5, Drunken Master occasionally avoid disadv, Four Elements spend 1 more ki on a spell, Kensei +1 or +2 more than existing magic weapon, Sun Soul situationally Sunburst might do more dmg), and precisely zero subclasses give a boost which would make up the 8-9 pts they would need to equal the other classes.

I think it is important to call out that the designers are attempting to create a varied game, with many possible approaches to play, so we do not see uniformity. I am giving a general description of the structure, to which there is variation that can be best understood with reference to the general structure. Let's look at the five you list

Long Death - not dying is expected to improve your DPR. You'll often see with monks the designers being tricksy with defences that are also somehow offences.

Mercy - Flurry of Healing and Harm. The free Hand of Harm means you get your martial die + Wis mod on every flurry. In play that is a damage boost as you now have 11 ki and can regularly flurry (it seems expected by the maths that you will do). However, the sub-class is intended to give monks a healing role and so some of the power that could have been given in damage has instead been given in healing.

Open Hand - this is one of my favourite monk sub-classes and shows a case where a class is given a defence in place of stronger attacks. The designers again have traded part of the DPR step expectation for something else. That is very common across class and sub-class features. You often see that at the point where the reference-structure would suggest a DPR increase, a defence is gained instead. The point is that there is consistency to this across classes.

Shadow - on effect of invisibility is advantage on attacks against creatures that cannot see you, so the 11th level feature for shadow monks is expected to increase their DPR. Not all designs are equally successful, and the designers did something here that you see across the monk class far more than others IMO, which is to inadequately consider the action economy. I think they hoped to provide a defence that would also be a damage boost, and prenerfed it by costing an action.

Ascendent Dragon - I don't see how the Aspect of Wyrm destructive waves and the 11th level scaling on Breath do not count as a damage boost. Remember that these are in theory only half the monk's step at 11th. The other half is in their martial die.

2) other classes subclasses
- fighter: 6 give dmg boosts (arcane archer, PDK, battlemaster, EK, psi-warrior, rune knight) and 4 don't (cavalier, champion, echo knight, samurai), so more subclasses give dmg boosts than for monk !
- rogue: 3 give dmg boosts (arcane trickster, phantom, soulknife) and 6 don't (assassin, inquisitive, mastermind, scout, swashbuckler, thief), so even with sneak attack boosts every 2 levels in the base class, a third of rogue subclasses give dmg boosts on top of this !
- paladin: 4 give dmg boosts (crown, glory, vengeance, oathbreaker) and 5 don't (ancients, conquest, devotion, redemption, watchers), so approx half give dmg boost !
- warlock: 3 give dmg boosts (celestial, hexblade, undead), 6 don't (archfey, fathomless, fiend, genie, GOO, undying) so a third of warlock subclasses give dmg boosts, and that's without factoring in 2 extra invocations which can potentially give damage boosts too (sometimes depending on pact) such as Eldritch Spear, Maddening Hex, Pact of the Talisman, Superior Pact Weapon, etc.

So, verdict:
1) False.
2) False.


As shown above, other classes subclasses give DPR boosts too, so this is just .... false ?

I believe you are taking what I am saying in very much the wrong way. Yes, 5e is diverse. How do designers manage such diversity? They work to rubrics or reference-structures. The variation that exists varies in reference to that structure.

To give just one case, think about how Treantmonk uses the warlock as his baseline for evaluating classes. The reason that is so effective is because EB gains more bolts (aka extra attacks) and adds the ability modifier, which is itself scaling (agonizing), and has an easy to predict boost (Hex). He could have used the fighter, but then you have to consider different weapons, fighting styles, action surges and so on.

Treantmonk's warlock baseline works because it makes visible the 'steppy' reference-structure. That provides the context for other features to be better understood.

 

[cbwjm]

In general, classes get a damage increase, some though get a defensive increase. Barbarians don't get any additional DPR at level 11, however, they have a chance to keep fighting if dropped to 0 at level 11 with relentless rage instead.

Artificers gain spell storing item, which could be used for offensive spells but doesn't have to be.

While many classes do gain an offensive boost, some gain a defensive one which do not provide a DPR increase.

 

[clearstream]

I'd love to see it.

I will second that! Please post it if you have the time.

Okay, I will need a little time but fear not, I will get there.

Time, because I performed the deconstruction in order to reconstruct an E6 kind of scaling for 5E. In this mod, I wanted to stop class scaling at 6th level, and thereafter only increase variety in approaches, so I needed to understand what the backbone of each class was. Unfortunately, that also means the information is currently broken up into tables suited for my purposes, and need to be stitched back together.

Here is a slice of my breakdown at levels 6 to 11. The three columns - 1, 2, 4 - are my way of evaluating each feature against an ASI. So an ASI is 2, a half-ASI is 1, and stronger-than-an-ASI is 4. I used the Detect Balance work by other gamers to validate my assessments. I examined features from PHB, XGE and TCoE. What I will do is stitch back in my level 1-5 breakdown. I think then you will get a strong sense for the patterns. [EDIT I think this table dates from before I realised I need to cost in the HD for each class! Anyway, I will post more - links to sheets I suppose - soon.]