Classes ... Much Less Flexible than Advertised

[small pumpkin man]

Right. And that's valid design. It's just that the design I wanted and expected used Rogue, Cleric, or Fighter as a template of good design, and not Paladin, Monk, or Barbarian.

I realize this is being nitpicky, but they're fairly obviously using Sorcerer, not Barbarians and Paladins who had almost no built in class options, only stat and feat options. Sorcerers had options and flexibility within it's base concept, but tended to not step on other classes toes quite as much the Wizard or Cleric, (and not so complicated to be irritating to play like many prepared casters)

Stop, please. You're never going to adequately rationalize the 4e rogue ability weapon restrictions with real-world logic. A heavy crossbow is easier to disguise & hide than... a staff? A sap? An improvised blunt instrument (i.e. club)?

Whether or not this is true is somewhat besides the point, the point is that knives and shurikens are extremely easy to hide or disguise as other objects on your person meaning "can't use their abilities in a disguise" is untrue. (Which is obviously what I was replying to)

 

[Stogoe]

I realize that, but sneak attack works with any crossbow, out of the box.

And the rapier is a light blade*, out of the box. That doesn't mean he's proficient in it.

So we have:

Take a feat, and Sneak attack with a rapier
and
Take a feat, and Sneak attack with a heavy crossbow.

Compared with "Sneak attack with a hand crossbow or a dagger, no feats required."


*EDIT: Yes, this is an assumption. But if the rapier isn't some sort of light blade in 4e, I'll eat my hat.

 

[Spatula]

And the rapier is a light blade*, out of the box. That doesn't mean he's proficient in it.

I didn't say he was?

 

[Darkthorne]

In regards to sneak attack "using a light blade, a crossbow, or a sling" I believe it's a combination of both pinpoint accuracy and timing. The light blade is obvious to most. As for the X-bow (or subset thereof) the bolt is held in place, your mobility isn't affected much then you aim and pull the trigger. Compared to using a bow (which I have used) requires more concentration, endurance becomes a factor (not necessarily a huge one, but one none the less) against a moving target. As for the sling the only thing I can think of is that it is a small projectile (bullet) hitting a small specific area (which a lot of people could see as a stretch). I also think they downplayed the damage as that was the one main thing the 3.5 rogue had going for it in regards to combat (unless VS, undead, elemental, oozes, armor or fortification etc.) and gave it new abilities that can be used against multiple foe types.

For the 2 preselected skills I don't see this as an issue. I have a group of relative newbies, which one guy was very excited to put together a sniper (was not familiar with the rules) and he put together a ranger with ZERO ranks in spot. Needless to say he wasn't doing much recon. If I remember correctly WOTC mentioned you could focus more in trained skills (I could be wrong) so having a base amount in freebie skills seems to be a non issue.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I'm just glad to see slings get some love.

They are terribly undervalued weapons in most RPGs and Wargames.

 

[hong]

I'm happy to see CROSSBOWS get some love! Now that the full attack is gone, maybe people will actually start using crossbows now instead of machine-gun archers all the time.

 

[Celebrim]

I'm just glad to see slings get some love.

They are terribly undervalued weapons in most RPGs and Wargames.

I'll praise them for this when and only if I see them get the range increments for various weapons right. All of the ones in 3E were too long, except for the sling.

STRIKE!

 

[TwinBahamut]

In regards to sneak attack "using a light blade, a crossbow, or a sling" I believe it's a combination of both pinpoint accuracy and timing. The light blade is obvious to most. As for the X-bow (or subset thereof) the bolt is held in place, your mobility isn't affected much then you aim and pull the trigger. Compared to using a bow (which I have used) requires more concentration, endurance becomes a factor (not necessarily a huge one, but one none the less) against a moving target. As for the sling the only thing I can think of is that it is a small projectile (bullet) hitting a small specific area (which a lot of people could see as a stretch). I also think they downplayed the damage as that was the one main thing the 3.5 rogue had going for it in regards to combat (unless VS, undead, elemental, oozes, armor or fortification etc.) and gave it new abilities that can be used against multiple foe types.

I will agree with this.

The new sneak attack seems to be based on the idea of being able to seize a very brief window of opportunity with a quick attack. Knives and other "light blades" are the stereotypical kings of this kind of thing, so obviously they will be used for sneak attacks. Crossbows work because, despite their slow reload time, they can be triggered quickly, even on the run. I imagine that in a different technological period guns would also work as sneak attack weapons (I think Indiana Jones pretty famously uses a gun to sneak attack a swordsman ). Having never used a sling or seen one used, I really don't know why they are useable with sneak attack... I guess to give them a niche and to help associate them with the stereotypical Halfling Rogue.

I can't imagine using a bow with a sneak attack because it is hard to seize a quick opportunity with a bow. In order to hit accurately with a bow, you need to slow down and bring your whole body into a proper position to fire. It requires focusing every muscle in your body into a set pattern in order to pull off a stable draw and smooth release of the arrow. I think bows would be great weapons for long range sniping attacks, but that is hardly the same thing as it being good for a quick shot at a moment of weakness.

As for other weapons... I think few melee weapons are quite as quick and subtle as the knife, and certainly greatswords, axes, clubs, spears, and staves are not. I can't imagine any of them being really good for striking precisely in the blink of an eye and sneaking an attack past the opponent's defenses, simply by virtue of being to heavy or requiring too large and obvious of a wind up to the attack.

I guess I have no problem justifying the rogue weapon list, other than figuring out the sling, I guess. I would be more inclined to remove the sling than to open up the list further.

 

[Scholar & Brutalman]

I'm just glad to see slings get some love.

They are terribly undervalued weapons in most RPGs and Wargames.

And I was glad to see daggers get some love! The premier weapon of the backstabbing bastard.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I'll praise them for this when and only if I see them get the range increments for various weapons right. All of the ones in 3E were too long, except for the sling.

STRIKE!

Um, not really.

The current record on a sling toss is 477+ yards. According to the SRD the longest potential range for a sling bullet is 500 feet.

That record is far less than the distances ancient commentators recorded for the sling, and no matter how you trace their accuracy and judgement of distance classical commentators were pretty universal in praising the effective range of slings over bows.

If the range increments are simply determined by taking the maximum possible miracle shot range and then dividing it by ten, the sling is heavilly underrated.