Classes need to be ready to go from the beginning

[Glyfair]

Yes, In one of the quotes a cleric strikes a target, creating a surge of healing energy, or something of that sort.
The concept is nice, but the implementation hinted in this quote sounds not so great to me. It's kind of forced - the cleric should be able to heal along with actively participating in the fight, but just making every hit heal someone?.

Remember, this is just one example. One example does not a class make. There is likely a range of abilities.

 

[Jack99]

Read Merric's description again - especially this bit:



The problem isn't that he's playing a support class. The problem is that the support class that he's playing is BORING. He can give a pitiful bonus to his allies, or he can stand around and make an int check to see if he can give a flanking bonus to his ally - but if he does that he can't do anything else that round. Both his active and his passive support involve him standing around not doing much. That's BORING. And it sounds like the other players at 1st level had far more interesting things to do in comparison. At least when I play a "support cleric" I get to run around the battlefield smacking people with cure spells and doing something instead of just standing back letting everyone else have the fun in the combat.

I agree if you only use the part that you quoted, it does sound as you say, however, if you read his whole post, for example comments regarding cleric support spells, it becomes evident that he just doesnt like support classes and their role.

Perhaps it is just my less than perfect grasp of english that has made me misunderstand the content of his post, and if that is indeed the case, I apologise.

Cheers,

 

[Dinkeldog]

Maybe you should play First Person Shooters instead of DnD. It seems you have an absolute distaste for the cooperative part of it.

Cheers.

This is a remarkably unhelpful post. When you make a post like this, you're essentially trying to shut down the conversation or insist that only your way is correct. Next time you might try this:

"Others may enjoy this play style, but it reminds me of First Person Shooters instead of what I think of when I think of DnD. I would hope that the game would allow all play styles out of the box."

This might turn the conversation a bit to types of play styles, or launch a new thread about different play styles (respectfully, of course), but doesn't attempt to shut down the conversation because it isn't focused on the play style that you like.

--Dinkeldog/Moderator

 

[sunmaster]

The problem isn't that he's playing a support class. The problem is that the support class that he's playing is BORING. He can give a pitiful bonus to his allies, or he can stand around and make an int check to see if he can give a flanking bonus to his ally - but if he does that he can't do anything else that round.

I cannot believe that someone don't see the ACTION behind this INT check: A PC is making a check for a special outcome from a Action he makes in the fantasy world, you know!?

If he makes a check and can support his allies in a fght, how can that be boring, please??
He makes something. He does something.

All the other PLAYERS are also only making checks, rolls with dices. Nothing more. So does the player of this hunter.

And his - the hunter's - actions are heroic: He gives his allies a tip how to best attack so they get ruleswise this special add to their roll.

How can that be BORING, please?


And again: He should play a hunter because it is a hunter, not because he gets +x here and +y there. Or have I misunderstood "roleplaying" in last 14 years I am playing now, and should I choose in the future the races/classes for their boni?

 

[Jack99]

This is a remarkably unhelpful post. When you make a post like this, you're essentially trying to shut down the conversation or insist that only your way is correct. Next time you might try this:

"Others may enjoy this play style, but it reminds me of First Person Shooters instead of what I think of when I think of DnD. I would hope that the game would allow all play styles out of the box."

This might turn the conversation a bit to types of play styles, or launch a new thread about different play styles (respectfully, of course), but doesn't attempt to shut down the conversation because it isn't focused on the play style that you like.

--Dinkeldog/Moderator

Noted, I will try to behave.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

And his - the hunter's - actions are heroic: He gives his allies a tip how to best attack so they get ruleswise this special add to their roll.

"Hey, Fighter Bob, it would be better for you to hit that Mind flayer from the left...."

I think that is back seat driving... not Heroic.

 

[Woas]

Well for starters, the War Leader feat which I believe you are refering to by the "make Intellegence check to give combatants +4 flank" actually is a standard action not entire round.
What other feat did you have? And your traits?
If you had Warleader 2 you could have made your allies get extra AoO. Which by the way are a lot more steamlined in IH, and tend to happen more often.
Also the class specifically mentions in the Hunter Strategy section:

The hunter is perhaps the most difficult class to play in Iron
Heroes. As a leader, you sometimes must put the needs of others
ahead of your own. The solo hunter rarely finds glory, but
he excels at helping the group as a whole win difficult victories
against long odds.

So they pretty much told you exactly what you just found out.
Can you descibe the combat you were involved in? Was it just a flat, 30x30 room with nothing in it? If all you are doing is running around, hiding behind things that is not very Iron Heroesy, and I would question the DM as to why there weren't all sorts of Zones to exploit. Finally What kind of skills did you have? Hunters get a pretty good amount and have Athletics, Perception, Stealth, and Wilderness Lore skill groups. So they means you would have climb and jump... even use rope. You could have made a lasso and roped people up! Or used other skills along with stunts.

 

[Merlion]

I cannot believe that someone don't see the ACTION behind this INT check: A PC is making a check for a special outcome from a Action he makes in the fantasy world, you know!?

If he makes a check and can support his allies in a fght, how can that be boring, please??
He makes something. He does something.

All the other PLAYERS are also only making checks, rolls with dices. Nothing more. So does the player of this hunter.

And his - the hunter's - actions are heroic: He gives his allies a tip how to best attack so they get ruleswise this special add to their roll.

How can that be BORING, please?


And again: He should play a hunter because it is a hunter, not because he gets +x here and +y there. Or have I misunderstood "roleplaying" in last 14 years I am playing now, and should I choose in the future the races/classes for their boni?

You do realize that different people have different tastes and styles of play right?

And you do realize that many, if not most people choose their class BOTH for "what it is" conceptually, and "what it can do" mechanically.

 

[Merlion]

I always thought that being "second best at everything" was one way of doing something better than any other class. ... All those other classes? Specialists. One-trick ponies. The "second best at everything" guy? Flexible. Has the potential to step up and take on any task anywhere. Ad-lib a solution and get the job done.

I like that sort of guy. He's taking care of all the piddly crap the superstars don't want to mess with because they're looking for the next opportunity to shine or whine.

I agree in concept, but in practice the classes that have tried to do this in D&D...mostly Bard and Cleric, have ended up being underpowered and overpowered, respectively, in terms of mechanics.

 

[Merlion]

Yes, In one of the quotes a cleric strikes a target, creating a surge of healing energy, or something of that sort.
The concept is nice, but the implementation hinted in this quote sounds not so great to me. It's kind of forced - the cleric should be able to heal along with actively participating in the fight, but just making every hit heal someone? Doesn't make much sense to me, as far as anything can make sense in a fantasy game. A cleric is a cleric after all, so fighting should come second to him, and healing should most definitely not be tied to hurting someone else, except maybe for smiting demons and stuff. I hope this is not some permanent ability, maybe a unique spell.
I'd suggest having healing spells or abilities that create an aura of healing around the cleric, so he can cast once, and proceed doing other things while the aura heals his comrades. For balance, it should be weaker than the plain old healing spells, but still be a viable alternative.

I have a little bit of concern about this as well for various reasons, but as others have mentioned, its probably only one option. I especially wouldnt mind it if it is in fact a specific spell, rather than a class ability.