Cleave and Attacks of Opportunity

[Hypersmurf]

I can see no logical reason why if someone near me drops their guard that I should then be subject to an extra out-of-initiative attack.

You're not subject to an extra out-of-initiative attack because someone drops their guard.

You're subject to an extra out-of-initiative attack because someone with Cleave drops an opponent.

That's what Cleave does. It doesn't matter what provoked the attack; what matters is that he dropped.

-Hyp.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

The basis for allowing a character to get an attack outside of the normal initiative sequence (an AOO) is that a threatened opponent has dropped their guard.

I personally prefer this interpretation; it seems to cover a wide range of AoOs in an understandable manner. It is hardly the only possible explanation though.

As for cleave, there is the "momentum" explanation which is a pretty good first cut. Another explanation for cleave is the "multiple opponent expert", someone who uses the confusion many combatants to find otherwise impossible to exploit openings. This second model has its perculiarities, but it is a reasonable basis for justifying AoO+Cleave.

 

[anon]

You're not subject to an extra out-of-initiative attack because someone drops their guard.

You're subject to an extra out-of-initiative attack because someone with Cleave drops an opponent.

That's what Cleave does. It doesn't matter what provoked the attack; what matters is that he dropped.

-Hyp.

Within the initiative order you are correct (IMHO). The Cleaver already threatened me, but chose to attack someone else, dropped them, then swung into me (with their theatrical momentum). When it is an opponent's iniative I expect that they will try to attack me. This is logical and fine.

On the other hand, out-of-initiative attacks are restricted fairly tightly. If I have done nothing to provoke an extra attack then there should not be one, and certainly not because someone in proximity to me dropped their guard.

 

[Hypersmurf]

If I have done nothing to provoke an extra attack then there should not be one, and certainly not because someone in proximity to me dropped their guard.

... except that Cleave says "whenever".

We're in the Rules forum, after all. "Should" is for House Rules

-Hyp.

 

[Elvinis75]

The problem with this arguement is the same as it was in the last thread. The word enemy has a definition. It is based on two person view point and even then it leans more to the other persons intent. If I attack some and they never try to fight back I do not believe that they are my enemy. They might be my victim or even sacrific but the word enemy involves them trying to cause harm to me.

Websters(Again!?!):
1: one that is antagonistic to another; especially : one seeking to injure, overthrow, or confound an opponent
2 : something harmful or deadly
3 a : a military adversary b : a hostile unit or force

1: Nope, they boss in a evil group might at some point be challenged to a fight with one or more of the lackies but I doubt that is happening at the time of the BBEG's attack.

2: possibly but again view point is important, to the character nope.

3: Definitely not. You can't be both at the same time. At some point forces change between ally or adversary. At the point that they run by the BBEG they are allies and thus do not draw AOOs.

The enemies lackies do not fit those definitions IMNSHO. I think that we could run this by customer service but I'm pretty sure that they would say that you can't cut down allies and call them enemies for the purpose of AOOs and cleave.

Looking at your situations I feel that there is no advantage to #1 or #4 (as they should not draw AOOs), there is nothing wrong with #2 or #3 that is the way that they defined to work within the rules.

Ally and enemy terms are not arbitary or illogical, they go to the heart of the rules.

 

[Elvinis75]

One more thing the extra attack on the secondary character after an AOO doesn't have anything to do with that secondary character rather the skill of the person taking the attack of opportunity. Without the feat cleave he cannot attack you but he is skilled beyond the normal rules and thus if he kills the stupid person he can combo attack that person and another. That is the heart of cleave. The second person is no more open for an cleave attack during the enemies turn than if he is attacked by that enemy off an AOO cleave. The AOO part of it isn't what is causing him to be attacked it is the feat.

 

[hong]

One more thing the extra attack on the secondary character after an AOO doesn't have anything to do with that secondary character rather the skill of the person taking the attack of opportunity. Without the feat cleave he cannot attack you but he is skilled beyond the normal rules and thus if he kills the stupid person he can combo attack that person and another. That is the heart of cleave. The second person is no more open for an cleave attack during the enemies turn than if he is attacked by that enemy off an AOO cleave. The AOO part of it isn't what is causing him to be attacked it is the feat.

This is correct. Even if you take AoOs out of the equation, you can still end up in the situation where the BBEG takes more damage if he's accompanied by his minions, than if he's not. The problem is with Great Cleave itself; AoOs just make it obvious.

What I'd rule is that you can only make one cleave attack per target per round. So you can knock over as many mooks as you want, but you'll still only get one swing at the BBEG.

 

[Storm Raven]

Me neither. But it's the old problem that a BBEG with mooks is easier to beat than without mooks

In this case, it's actually "the old problem that a BBEG with mooks who draw AoOs is easier to beat than without mooks who draw AoOs."

 

[Elvinis75]

This is correct. Even if you take AoOs out of the equation, you can still end up in the situation where the BBEG takes more damage if he's accompanied by his minions, than if he's not. The problem is with Great Cleave itself; AoOs just make it obvious.

What I'd rule is that you can only make one cleave attack per target per round. So you can knock over as many mooks as you want, but you'll still only get one swing at the BBEG.

That situation isn’t necessary. The BBEG is relatively smart right? He has witnessed a little bit of combat right. His more than likely have seen a person with cleave. Thus he sends in the clown and doesn’t follow them in. He is smarter than that. He hangs back and let the mooks do their jobs. They die but they weaken the PCs. Then the BBEG moves in with the advantage. The only way that the PCs get to attack the BBEG a bunch o time is if they use the whirlwind with GC. Something that I don’t like but it is allowed I think. I think that mid-high level characters are going to be facing mooks that are less likely to fall in one blow. 9th level fighter facing a giant plus 6 ogres is not likely IMC to kill the ogres in a single blow. 29 Hit points is a lot to put down in a single blow. A BBEG at CR isn’t going to bother sending goblins or orcs to fighter renouned fighter. IMHO

 

[Elric]

hong is right. Great Cleave is what causes problems, no Whirlwind Attack or Attacks of Opportunity. Way back when, Supreme Cleave (Samurai ability) let you take a 5-foot step when you got a cleave attack (or at least it could be interpreted this way), which meant that you could duplicate the "Pounce" ability by killing a whole bunch of blind kobolds while moving up to the true enemy.

This also had some funny implications with endless rows of blind kobolds, effectively allowing you to teleport. I must say that I find it completely silly that a DM would have to make a bunch of "enemy/ally distinctions" or that this scenario could even come up due to the paladin's rabbit friend, or that DMs would have to specifically modify villains to beat this tactic.

Pax's house rule is very good and solves the entire great cleave/AoO problem. To me, it seems like the best way to preserve the spirit of cleave and fix this problem (and if you have to make a million distinctions and change tactics to prevent players from doing AoO cleaving, I would say that it is definitely a problem). Let the war of attrition continue... I have Great Cleave