Cleave and Attacks of Opportunity

[Plane Sailing]

You know, it's threads like this that make me wonder whether it would be worth just ditching cleave and great cleave altogether... (I already dislike the way that cleave and especially great cleave let you break the basic "only one attack on a standard action" rule which is so rigorously protected against magic (haste) and magic items (weapons of speed)).

It started off as an ability for higher level fighters to slaughter mooks as per earlier editions, but it opened up a can of interpretive worms which we'd probably be better without!

Regards,

 

[borc killer]

You know, it's threads like this that make me wonder whether it would be worth just ditching cleave and great cleave altogether... (I already dislike the way that cleave and especially great cleave let you break the basic "only one attack on a standard action" rule which is so rigorously protected against magic (haste) and magic items (weapons of speed)).QUOTE]

Just nurf AoO and don't let Cleave go off in it. Simple and easy and solves all the problems listed in this post and does not cause more... *shurg*

Borc Killer

 

[mikebr99]

Just nurf AoO and don't let Cleave go off in it. Simple and easy and solves all the problems listed in this post and does not cause more... *shurg*

Borc Killer

well... other then breaking the rules... I guess you're right.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ally and enemy terms are not arbitary or illogical, they go to the heart of the rules.

So how do you rule Bless and Bane?

If the person I think is my best buddy Fred the Fighter is really a doppelganger assassin sent to kill me, is he my enemy or my ally?

Is he affected when I cast Bless?

Is he affected when I cast Bane?

As far as I know, he's my friend... but he knows he's going to stick a knife in me at first opportunity.

The only way that the PCs get to attack the BBEG a bunch o time is if they use the whirlwind with GC. Something that I don’t like but it is allowed I think.

Allowed in 3E; not allowed in 3.5.

Way back when, Supreme Cleave (Samurai ability) let you take a 5-foot step when you got a cleave attack (or at least it could be interpreted this way), which meant that you could duplicate the "Pounce" ability by killing a whole bunch of blind kobolds while moving up to the true enemy.

Fortunately, Supreme Cleave specifies only one 5' step per round...

This is correct. Even if you take AoOs out of the equation, you can still end up in the situation where the BBEG takes more damage if he's accompanied by his minions, than if he's not.

How? Without AoOs, the fighter has 4 attacks. If every one drops a mook, he gets 4 attacks on the BBEG. If the BBEG had no minions, he'd get 4 attacks on the BBEG.

Without AoOs, how do the minions cause the BBEG to take more damage?

-Hyp.

 

[Aristotle]

I don't like the use of the BBEG + Mooks as an argument against Cleave + AoO. It is still going to happen, but if the DM is playing the BBEG appropriately it should be happening less. This is of course all in my opinion, but let me explain...

If the BBEG is a total idiot he may attack with his incompetent mooks, and the scene will play out like you are describing. The mooks will fall and AoAs will be scored against the BBEG. But if the BBEG allowed that to transpire, he deserves the swift end he gets.

If the BBEG is smart, and he feels that his mooks actually stand a fighting chance against the PCs he might attack with the mooks, and take his chances. Of course he has a little information on the PCs and he has hired more competent mooks, so he truly does believe that if he stands with them they can defeat the PCs. Maybe the scene will play out like you describe, or maybe you'll just get a real cool fight scene that the players are talking about for weeks to come.

If that same BBEG does not feel his mooks can take the PCs, he is going to separate himself from the mooks. He understands tactics, and he knows that by getting caught up in the rush he stands a better chance of getting hurt... so he stands back, points at the PCs with an evil snear, and screams "Get Them!". All of his mooks charge the PCs, putting more than enough space between him and the mooks so that he will be out of harms way. Should a mook start backing into him, he can easily counter to keep himself free of the melee.

At least that is how I see it. Cleave + AoO doesn't break the game, but it does require some tactics to avoid. I think that's how combat should work...

 

[Hypersmurf]

If that same BBEG does not feel his mooks can take the PCs, he is going to separate himself from the mooks. He understands tactics, and he knows that by getting caught up in the rush he stands a better chance of getting hurt... so he stands back, points at the PCs with an evil snear, and screams "Get Them!". All of his mooks charge the PCs, putting more than enough space between him and the mooks so that he will be out of harms way. Should a mook start backing into him, he can easily counter to keep himself free of the melee.

Ah - I see you've been to the Xena Villain school of BBEGing...

When are you guys going to figure out that if the last dozen hordes of minions who were told to "Get them!" were crushed mercilessly, that exactly the same thing is going to happen to us this time, hmm?

-Hyp.

 

[Crothian]

So how do you rule Bless and Bane?

If the person I think is my best buddy Fred the Fighter is really a doppelganger assassin sent to kill me, is he my enemy or my ally?

That's why the DM gets paid the big bucks. Some things the rules don't need to cover becasue the DM can do it depending on their world. The source of magic is a god, so the magic could recognize an enemy that has decivied the PC. Of course that's outside the scope of the rules, but it creates an interesting situation where magic knows more or precieves better then the PC.

But in this case the answer is simple, the doppelganger is an ally because the the person thinks he's an ally. Characters get to choose who they want to be an ally and who they want to be an enemy.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But in this case the answer is simple, the doppelganger is an ally because the the person thinks he's an ally. Characters get to choose who they want to be an ally and who they want to be an enemy.

But the spell isn't of type Target: X creatures, it's of type Area: X creatures. So it affects all creatures that fit the criteria of the spell even if the caster is blind, or unaware of their presence, or whatever. And he can't select them individually, like he can with a spell of type Target: X creatures.

A blind cleric casting Bless will affect all of his allies within range. A blind cleric casting Bane will affect all of his enemies within range.

How can that work if the character has to choose who he wants to be an enemy? That would be more suited to a Targeted spell, not an Area spell.

Next question - if a character can choose who he wants to be an ally, how does that interact with the 3E ruling on flanking? You are flanking if you are making a melee attack, and an ally directly opposite threatens the opponent.

If I'm attacking the BBEG, and one of his minions is behind him holding a dagger, and I get to choose who I want to be an ally, then technically, if I choose the minion as an ally, I fulfil the requirements of flanking...

-Hyp.

 

[Crothian]

How can that work if the character has to choose who he wants to be an enemy? That would be more suited to a Targeted spell, not an Area spell.

I don't see it as Bob the cleric going "Frank is a f=riend, so bless him, but that orc is bad so no bless for him. The villagers we are trying to save so I'll have bless them"

I see it as the spell uses Bob's perception of the people and based on that decides whom to effect. And how does the spell use Bob's perceptions? Magic of course.

Next question - if a character can choose who he wants to be an ally, how does that interact with the 3E ruling on flanking? You are flanking if you are making a melee attack, and an ally directly opposite threatens the opponent.

If I'm attacking the BBEG, and one of his minions is behind him holding a dagger, and I get to choose who I want to be an ally, then technically, if I choose the minion as an ally, I fulfil the requirements of flanking...

Because the DM isn't stupid enough to allow that to happen. In that case its obvious the bad guy is a bad guy. The only reason a person would try that is to take advantage of the rules. The choice on ally an enemy does not have to be conscious one.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I see it as the spell uses Bob's perception of the people and based on that decides whom to effect. And how does the spell use Bob's perceptions? Magic of course.

So what if Bob's friend Wally the Wizard teleported in last round... but he's invisible, so Bob doesn't know he's there? Bob considers Wally an ally, but he's unaware of his presence... but still, Wally's in range of an Area spell that affects Bob's allies?

Next question... what if an evil doppelganger disguised as Bob's friend Wally the Wizard teleported in last round, also invisible? Bob hasn't seen the doppelganger, so he doesn't know it looks like Wally.

And what if the third person who teleported in last round, invisible, has been sent by Bob's high priest to offer Bob whatever aid he can? Bob's never met him, but a minute's conversation would assure Bob he's an ally.

-Hyp.