Cleave and Attacks of Opportunity

[Crothian]

All of that is up to the DM and how he wants to do it. In all instances since Bob doesn't know they are there , they are not effected, IMO of course.

DM's are allowed to make judgement calls, that's why being a DM is not near as easy as so many people think.

Sometimes we don't need clear cut answers to everything.

 

[Hypersmurf]

In all instances since Bob doesn't know they are there , they are not effected, IMO of course.

Area spell.

"A spell with this kind of area affects creatures directly (like a targeted spell), but it affects all creatures in an area of some kind rather than individual creatures you select."

His knowledge of their presence is unnecessary. Like a Sleep spell - you don't need to know there's something there, and the spell will still affect it.

-Hyp.

 

[Crothian]

Okay, then I hearbye reverse my position!!

 

[hong]

How? Without AoOs, the fighter has 4 attacks. If every one drops a mook, he gets 4 attacks on the BBEG. If the BBEG had no minions, he'd get 4 attacks on the BBEG.

Without AoOs, how do the minions cause the BBEG to take more damage?

Ah, never mind. I was posting at 2 in the morning, after all.

 

[Aristotle]

Ah - I see you've been to the Xena Villain school of BBEGing...

When are you guys going to figure out that if the last dozen hordes of minions who were told to "Get them!" were crushed mercilessly, that exactly the same thing is going to happen to us this time, hmm?

-Hyp.

I never said the BBEG can't help... just that he would keep from getting caught up in the chaos of melee if he could help it. If he is a spellcaster or ranged fighter he might just do his thing from afar. If he is a melee character he may try to circle around and pick off party members who aren't in the middle of the chaos.

I think you get my point. Things like the mook + AoO issue can be lessened by the use of tactics. Perhaps the examples I gave weren't amazing, but they were only examples.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hello everyone,

Two points:

a) I play the Paladin involved in this tragic endeavour and
b) I think that all of you have possibly missed something in the rules

Unfortunately, I have not been at work and so have had no computer from which to correspond on until now.

Attack of Opportunity
p137 of the Players Handbook 3.5

"This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity"

This is referring to Combat Reflexes and its effect on Attacks of Opportunity. However, it should equally and I believe is expected to equally apply to characters without the Combat Reflexes Feat.

Cleave
p92 of the Players Handbook 3.5
"...you get an immediate, extra melee attack against..."

Combining the two would seem to equate to Cleave not being allowed to be used as only one attack is allowed for a given opportunity and any cleave attempt would be considered a second attack. While technically, this would seem to cover only those with the Combat Reflexes feat, I'm sure it is meant to be a feature of Attacks of Opportunity in general.

There again, maybe I'm trying to stretch the rules. I would certainly be curious as to the board's perspective on this point.

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[Hypersmurf]

Combining the two would seem to equate to Cleave not being allowed to be used as only one attack is allowed for a given opportunity and any cleave attempt would be considered a second attack. While technically, this would seem to cover only those with the Combat Reflexes feat, I'm sure it is meant to be a feature of Attacks of Opportunity in general.

From the description of the Attack Action, a standard action:
"Multiple Attacks: A character who can make more than one attack per round must use the full attack action (see Full-Round Actions, below) in order to get more than one attack."

So, using the Attack Action, rather than the full attack action, you cannot get more than one attack.

However, Cleave allows you to gain an extra attack whenever you drop an opponent. This includes if you drop an opponent with an Attack Action... despite the fact that ordinarily, you must use the full attack action in order to get more than one attack.

Cleave provides an exception to this rule, just as it provides an exception to the Combat Reflexes rule.

-Hyp.

 

[dcollins]

Herremann, you are incorrect. While Combat Reflexes has a limit on AOOs, a Cleave attack is not itself an AOO. It is triggered by a "drop", which is different from a lower-your-guard "opportunity". All official WOTC sources have confirmed this quite consistently.

Edit: Hyp beat me. And refining my argument. Watch out, Hyp.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As you quote, Combat Reflexes says it "does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity." The Cleave triggered off an AOO is not an AOO, and not restricted by this language in any way.

Actually, I'm going to disagree with your logic chain there.

The Cleave is not an AoO, but it is an attack. Therefore, with the original AoO and the Cleave, you are making more than one attack for a given opportunity.

It's legal because the Cleave text overrides the Combat Reflexes text, not because the Combat Reflexes text doesn't prohibit it...

-Hyp.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

Hello again,

Interesting. I suppose I was working in wotc's MTG mode where if something says you can do something and another thing says you can't, the thing that says you can't holds and takes precedence.

Hypersmurf, if the above was the case, then Cleave would still work with a standard attack action as the standard action does not not say that you cannot or does not let you make more than one attack - just that to do so requires a full attack action. The Cleave exception fits neatly into this where as with an AoO, it leaves a foul taste in the mouth - at least to this Paladin anyway .

Best Regards
Herremann the Wise