Cleave and Attacks of Opportunity

[Elvinis75]

“So how do you rule Bless and Bane?
If the person I think is my best buddy Fred the Fighter is really a doppelganger assassin sent to kill me, is he my enemy or my ally?
Is he affected when I cast Bless?
Is he affected when I cast Bane?
As far as I know, he's my friend... but he knows he's going to stick a knife in me at first opportunity.” - Hyp

Wow for me looking at the spells it is quite clear. The spell doesn’t talk about opinion of the character. It is whether or not in reality they are an ally. Therefore the doppleganger is not affected by bless and is affected by bane. This follows the pattern that the opinion of the character isn’t the only thing taken when looking at the friends or foe question. For clerics whose power is devine I say that the diety knows friend from foe. The priest might not but he doesn’t have to for the spell to work. So in short my answer is that the diety knows and bane targets him and the bless doesn’t. Are their examples of wizard spells that follow this pattern.

“Allowed in 3E; not allowed in 3.5.” - Hyp

Agreed!


“How? Without AoOs, the fighter has 4 attacks. If every one drops a mook, he gets 4 attacks on the BBEG. If the BBEG had no minions, he'd get 4 attacks on the BBEG.
Without AoOs, how do the minions cause the BBEG to take more damage?” -Hyp.

I totally agree with hyper on this one. Without the instant changing the status of mooks to enemies there is no extra attacks. That is the heart of this issue. I think that the other person is an ally until you attack him. Ally don’t draw AOOs IMHO.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Wow for me looking at the spells it is quite clear. The spell doesn’t talk about opinion of the character. It is whether or not in reality they are an ally. Therefore the doppleganger is not affected by bless and is affected by bane.

So if I cast Detect Magic, then Bless, then Detect Magic again, anyone who doesn't show a new Enchantment aura is not really my ally?

So if I cast Detect Magic, then Bane, then Detect Magic again, anyone who does show a new Enchantment aura is actually an enemy?

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

Hyp's little "Bless to discover your allies" trick is the reason why I base the spell entirely off the perception of the caster. Sure, it's an area effect, not a targeted effect; I therefore base it off the caster's perception of that person whether or not the caster knows they're there. Essentially, folks more or less categorize folks they know into the "enemy" and the "ally" category. If the caster, when asked, would call you an ally, the spell affects you. Even if you're invisible, that doesn't matter.

That's different from flanking. The reason that flanking works is because allies are presumed to be threatening their enemies, and the enemy is dividing their attention. If the enemy doesn't need to (or doesn't know to) divide their attention, the enemy isn't flanked.

For example, Bob likes Mary, and Bob also like Agmar the Destroyer. Mary likes Bob, but Mary hates Agmar. While standing in line at the movie theater, Mary decides to launch an attack on Agmar, who's standing in between her and Bob.

Bob and Mary are allies standing on opposite sides of Agmar. Nonetheless, Agmar isn't flanked; because Bob's not attacking him, he's not dividing his attention between two opponents.

This may not be strictly according to the rules, but it's clearly within the spirit of the rules.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

To forestall an obvious question: imagine, later, that Mary is attacking Vlad the Impolite. Bob's with her on this: he can't abide a boor, and Vlad is a dire boor. However, Bob's the sneaky type, and so he's disguised himself as Vlad's favorite dinner guest: Agmar the Destroyer.

Mary, seeing Vlad and (apparently) Agmar together in a room, casts Bless. Is Bob affected?

I'd say no, although I'm changing my post -- I'd originally written yes. Bob is basically combining contradictory impressions: Mary generally likes Bob, which would make the spell affect him, but she specifically hates the person standing in front of her (whom she thinks is Agmar), and would at the moment consider that specific person to be an enemy. If only she hadn't seen Bob dressed as Agmar -- if he'd been standing behind Vlad, for example -- then he'd be affected.

One more example: Bob isn't Bob at all. He's actually Krypto the Annoying-o Prest-o Change-o Doppleganger-o. Which explains his friendship with Agmar. At long last, his trick is complete: he sneaks away from Mary, goes back to her boudoir, reverts to his normal shape, and awaits her. When she show up and casts bless, does it affect KtAPCD?

No: although she generally thinks of "Bob" as an ally, she thinks of that specific rubbery grey monstrosity in front of her as an enemy, and that overrides her general feelings toward Bob. If she knew it was Bob standing in front of her, whether he was affected would depend on just how stupid Mary was.

Daniel

 

[Hypersmurf]

I therefore base it off the caster's perception of that person whether or not the caster knows they're there. Essentially, folks more or less categorize folks they know into the "enemy" and the "ally" category. If the caster, when asked, would call you an ally, the spell affects you. Even if you're invisible, that doesn't matter.

How would you handle the situation I proposed above, where the evil doppelganger is disguised as the cleric's friend, but the cleric hasn't actually seen the disguise, since the doppelganger is invisible?

He doesn't know the doppelganger's disguised as his friend. If he could see the doppelganger, he might think it's his friend and consider it an ally, or he might see through the disguise and consider it an enemy. But we won't know what his perception is until he actually sees it.

Affected or not?

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

Forestalled, Hyp, forestalled.

Daniel

 

[Hypersmurf]

If only she hadn't seen Bob dressed as Agmar -- if he'd been standing behind Vlad, for example -- then he'd be affected.

Ahh... so the invisible doppelganger disguised as a friend in my example would be considered an enemy, because the caster can't see the disguise, and would therefore be Baned?

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

To make sure I'm clear: the doppelganger in your example would be affected by bane, since the cleric has no specific information to alter the general attitude of "doppelgangers are naughty." If the cleric had seen that particular doppelganger in his friend's disguise before, that'd be information more specific; he' be thinking, "Frank is nice," and even though he was wrong in the critter's identity, he'd thought fuzzy thoughts about that doppelganger before, reordering his enemy/ally taxonomy enough that the invisible doppelganger would be affected.

In other words, general perceptions are consistently outweighed by specific perceptions.

As an aside, I would of course give the cocked-eyebrow treatment to any player that asked me these sorts of questions mid-game; if they persisted, instead of ruling the way I'm describing here, I'd probably rule in the fashion least favorable to the player, in order to discourage them from bogging down play like this. Discussing it in a rules forum is just a way of killing time.

Daniel

 

[Hypersmurf]

If the cleric had seen that particular doppelganger in his friend's disguise before, that'd be information more specific; he' be thinking, "Frank is nice," and even though he was wrong in the critter's identity, he'd thought fuzzy thoughts about that doppelganger before, reordering his enemy/ally taxonomy enough that the invisible doppelganger would be affected.

The caster's seen the doppelganger disguised as Frank before. He's also seen the doppelganger disguised as Agmar the Destroyer. The doppelganger is currently invisible, and while the caster can't see it, it's disguised as Frank.

But Frank is also in the room, standing beside the caster, and has been for the last hour.

Does the spell consider an invisible creature who would look like Frank if he were visible an ally, despite evidence that it's probably not the real Frank?

As an aside, I would of course give the cocked-eyebrow treatment to any player that asked me these sorts of questions mid-game; if they persisted, instead of ruling the way I'm describing here, I'd probably rule in the fashion least favorable to the player, in order to discourage them from bogging down play like this. Discussing it in a rules forum is just a way of killing time.

Well, of course You don't think I'd argue this with a DM mid-game, do you?

-Hyp.

 

[Pielorinho]

If the doppelganger is invisible, then neither it nor its disguise is relevant: only Mary's general impressions of it. Has she more recently seen it as Agmar or as Frank? In most cases, that'd be the deciding factor for me. However, if she'd adventured with it for two years as Frank, and seen it once as Agmar, I might rule that she had a balance of fuzzy feelings toward it.

Lacking a specific conclusion on the spot, I'd say that you go by the balance of feelings toward an entity, whether or not those feelings are merited.

For example, if Frank and Mary are married, and Mary believes her husband has been cheating on her, she may have feelings just as conflicted toward Frank as she has toward Prest-o (I TOLD you he was annoying-o!) I'd take the balance of her feelings in this case as well: does she still consider him an ally, or does she think he's scum in boots? If the former, he's blessed; if the latter, he's baned.

Daniel