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Cleave and Attacks of Opportunity

I only allow cleave on an aoo's agaists foes who were drawing aoo's.

two orcs run by, drawing an aoo, if you kill the first one, you cleave into the second.

This is not magic the gathering, this is why you have DM's
 

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Pielorinho said:
Lacking a specific conclusion on the spot, I'd say that you go by the balance of feelings toward an entity, whether or not those feelings are merited.

Let's say Mary's gotten herself into a sticky situation - she's managed to wind up in a three-way melee (no, Hong) with a demon and a devil.

Both will cheerfully gut her, but they're also interested in killing each other.

At present, the demon is caught between Mary on one side and the devil on the other.

1. If both are trying to kill the demon, do they grant each other flanking bonuses? In 3E, it required "an ally" who threatened the opponent; in 3.5, it requires "a creature friendly to you".

2. If Mary casts Bless, does it affect the devil, who is attacking the creature that's currently taking a swipe at her with poisoned claws?

3. If Mary casts Bane, does it affect the devil and the demon, who would both be more than happy to carve Mary into a decorative chess set as soon as they're the last one standing?

-Hyp.
 

frankthedm said:
I only allow cleave on an aoo's agaists foes who were drawing aoo's.

two orcs run by, drawing an aoo, if you kill the first one, you cleave into the second.

But creatures act in initiative order.

When the first orc provokes an AoO, the second orc is thirty feet away!

-Hyp.
 

Hypersmurf said:
But the spell isn't of type Target: X creatures, it's of type Area: X creatures. So it affects all creatures that fit the criteria of the spell even if the caster is blind, or unaware of their presence, or whatever. And he can't select them individually, like he can with a spell of type Target: X creatures.

-Hyp.
I see your argument, but I see a way around it as well. I think you're looking at the words ally and enemy too narrowly.

Area spells can not be used selectively. If something inside the area of effect is a valid target, it is effected. The caster may not pick and choose which valid targets are allowed.

The valid targets for a bless spell are allies.

D&D does not have a specific definition for the term ally, so we must turn to a dictionary version (from dicitionary.com) which states "One in helpful association with another."

That definition turns on the term helpful: Providing assistance.

To assist someone, that someone must have a goal in mind. Otherwise your efforts may aid them, but they do not assist them towards their goals.

So, bless should have an effect on any creature in the area of effect that is actively providing assistance to help the caster reach a goal. The type of assistance does not matter ... it could be actively helping the caster fight a monster or actively helping the caster to rememeber the names of his high school teachers.

I used the word 'actively' because planning is not enough. Planning to help is not helping. What matters is what has already occured.

So, if an evil Doppelganger is fighting side by side with the caster against an army of orcs (but intends to cut the caster down in a round), it is an ally because it is helping the caster fight off the orcs, even though he will no longer be an ally once he gives up his attack on the orcs and starts whacking at the caster. The spell does not recheck to see if you remain a valid ally under the official rules, but a DM would be well within his rights to rule 0 this and have the spell end when the doppelganger turned ont he cleric.

If a friendly invisible wizard appears right before the bless is cast, he will not receive the benefit from the spell unless he is actively engaged in helpful actions that further a goal of the caster. If he teleported in to bring something requested by the cleric, he is helping the caster, so he gains the benefit. If he teleported in to ask the caster to clean out the local stables, he is not being helpful, so he gains no benefit.

Bane, on the other hand turns on the word enemy which turns upon the word opposition. Bane finds anyone that is actively opposing you and gives them the penalty. The nature of that opposition does not matter. Only that it is active opposition to one of your active goals.

The key to the word ally in bless (or enemy in bane) is the active role that is being played when the spell is cast. If someone in the area of effect is helping the caster, he is considered an ally. If he is opposing the caster, he is an enemy.

Some entities might qualify as both: If the cleric is fighting an enemy, but then joins forces with that enemy, temporarily, to deal with a bigger threat, the initial enemy might be both an ally and an enemy. All we look for is active assistance and/or interference.

Some entities might qualify as neither: Any neutral parties in the spell or parties that have yet to take an active roll on one side or the other will not be affected.

So, if you cast detect magic, bless and then detect magic again, you'd detect those that are trying to help you do something. They might be planning to kill you soon, but they are trying to help you do something right now.

Casting detect magic, then bane, then detect magic will tell you who is opposing you. They might be in the process of trying to kill you. They might be running against you in a local election. They might be edging towards you so that they can steal your candy. All you know is that they are opposing you ... not how they are opposing you.

How does that grab you?
 

jgsugden said:
The key to the word ally in bless (or enemy in bane) is the active role that is being played when the spell is cast. If someone in the area of effect is helping the caster, he is considered an ally. If he is opposing the caster, he is an enemy.

How does that grab you?

What happens if the cleric wins initiative and casts Bane on the group of orcs whose stronghold the party have just invaded?

Being flat-footed, the orcs are not actively opposing him... but as soon as their initiative comes up, they're going to start waving greataxes (oops - falchions, in 3.5).

For the moment, however, they're still looking up from their halfling stew trying to figure out who just kicked in their door...

-Hyp.
 

Hypersmurf said:
What happens if the cleric wins initiative and casts Bane on the group of orcs whose stronghold the party have just invaded?

Being flat-footed, the orcs are not actively opposing him... but as soon as their initiative comes up, they're going to start waving greataxes (oops - falchions, in 3.5).

For the moment, however, they're still looking up from their halfling stew trying to figure out who just kicked in their door...

-Hyp.
Have the orcs done anything to oppose the PCs? Probably not. Then nothing happens.

There might be surrounding circumstances that put these orcs into opposition with the cleric. For instance, if the orcs are eating the halfling stew that the cleric was sent in to recover, the orcs are actively opposing his goal.
 

Hypersmurf said:
Let's say Mary's gotten herself into a sticky situation - she's managed to wind up in a three-way melee (no, Hong) with a demon and a devil.

Both will cheerfully gut her, but they're also interested in killing each other.

At present, the demon is caught between Mary on one side and the devil on the other.

1. If both are trying to kill the demon, do they grant each other flanking bonuses? In 3E, it required "an ally" who threatened the opponent; in 3.5, it requires "a creature friendly to you".
In cases at the extreme fringes of the rules, I'm going to look at the intent, rather than the letter, of the rules. (And I'm perfectly fine doing this in the rules forum; the intent of the rules is a valid subject of conversation here). Near as I can tell, the intent of flanking rules is to demonstrate what happens when your attention is divided between two enemies. It doesn't imply that the enemies are working as a cohesive team; otherwise, you couldn't be flanked by unintelligent creatures.

Given that, in the example above, the demon is flanked: it's having to divide its time between enemies on either side. This is technically not what the letter of the rules say, but it's exactly what the intent of the rules provides.
2. If Mary casts Bless, does it affect the devil, who is attacking the creature that's currently taking a swipe at her with poisoned claws?

3. If Mary casts Bane, does it affect the devil and the demon, who would both be more than happy to carve Mary into a decorative chess set as soon as they're the last one standing?
In both cases, that's up to Mary. Specifically, has she in her mind decided that the devil is a temporary ally whom she wants to be affected?

Daniel
 

frankthedm said:
This is not magic the gathering, this is why you have DM's

I agree Frank. While it might be fun to play around with frank, mary, dopplegangers and angmar etc. when it comes to the game it is up to the DM to make a decision that seems sensible to him and the players.

I was amused a while ago to see someone commenting that it was "important to get official answers from WotC". Why, I wonder? It isn't as if everyone is competing in a tournament with an uber-referee or something!

Cheers
 

Pielorinho said:
In both cases, that's up to Mary. Specifically, has she in her mind decided that the devil is a temporary ally whom she wants to be affected?

Daniel
I disagree. Mary gets no choices. The question is not whether Mary *thinks* the creature is an ally. The question is whether the creature is an ally.

Is the creature allied with Mary in an active goal? If so, it is blessed. If not, it is not. We're looking for active assistance (or in the case of bane, active opposition).
 

Plane Sailing said:
I was amused a while ago to see someone commenting that it was "important to get official answers from WotC". Why, I wonder? It isn't as if everyone is competing in a tournament with an uber-referee or something!

Cheers
No, but we do play with each other. Inconsistent answers lead to troubles down the road.

A few examples relating to polymorph (no need to argue polymorph rules here ... they've been done to death in different threads - these are just examples):

I play in multiple groups with multiple DMs. I play a druid in one group, a sorcerer in another group and a monk that is often polymorphed by the party mage in another. Each of the different DMs has different interpretations of how polymorph works. It is a hassle to keep the different polymorph rulings in mind in the different games.

I ran a game for a few young people. They all wanted to play druids. When they all reach 5th level, the wildshape/polymorph problems began. These intelligent youths had figured out ways to exploite wildshape to make their characters strong. Unfortunately, their exploites turned on different interpretations of how polymorph worked. One druid had a 20 con so that he'd be a hit point machine when wildshaped (assuming that hit point totals were fixed when polymorphed and did not change with a change in constitution). Another druid had a very low con because he thought it wouldn't matter while wildshaped (because he thought he would gain the hit point benefit of a change in con). Regardless of how I ruled it, one of these two would have their character 'ruined' by my call. Had this issue been clear in the rules, in the first place, this problem would never have existed. This was only one of many problems that were created by differing interpretations of how polymorph worked. In the end, I ended the campaign instead of trying to continue with players unhappy with their characters.

I've seen PCs die because the DM did polymorph differentyly than they thought it would be. In one instance, the character assumed he could see 40' in his animal form because he had low-light vision (gained as a trait for animal types). The DM ruled he didn't have low-light vision and decided that the player couldn't see the corner of the room where the enemy was hidden. The PC walked right past the enemy and ended up being slughtered when he ended up flanked.
 

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