Cleave and Attacks of Opportunity

[anon]

Remind me again what's wrong with just letting the caster's general outlook towards creatures in the area of effect determine "ally" or "enemy"?

 

[jgsugden]

Folks - You're trying to look at the small scale. Open up to the bigger picture.
Snapping off one aspect of an encounter and trying to analyze it reagarding bless or bane is like trying to grade a term paper after reading one word in it. You must look at the total situation to make a ruling. You need to know about the various goals that the caster is presently working towards.

I shot off some 'easy' answers to your earlier questions. I should have refused to answer until you fully described the situation. And I do mean fully. By giving me as much information as we would have if we sat down and played in the game. Full history. Full understanding of the character. Etc ...

Try this: In your next session, in the second round of a combat, during the cleric's turn (or another character if there is no cleric), ask yourself this: Who (within the range of bless) is actively helping one of the cleric's goals to be reached? It is very easy to answer. Very.

If you can't figure out how to use my advice, I'm sorry I failed to make it clear enough. It is too bad, because I've used this system for a LONG time. It has NEVER failed to grant a clear answer. If you stop trying to look for cracks and give it an honest try, you'll see that it is really easy and very effective.

 

[jgsugden]

Remind me again what's wrong with just letting the caster's general outlook towards creatures in the area of effect determine "ally" or "enemy"?

Because then you run into Hypersmurf's questions: How can the cleric have an outlook if he is unaware of the presence of an individual? What if the cleric is under a false impression with regards to the intent of the potential recipient of the spell?

 

[dcollins]

Those questions are easily answered. (a) He doesn't. (b) He gets screwed.

 

[Caliban]

Regarding Bane/Bless - here's my opinion:

The caster doesn't make any decisions, the creature being hit by spell is the one who determines if they are an enemy or an ally.

All creatures (enemy or ally) in the area are hit by the spell, so all of them will show the aura. If you are casting bless, only creatures that consider themselves your allies get the bonus. Enemies will still have the spell aura on them, but will not benefit from it.

I know the spell area says "The caster and all allies within a 50'-ft burst", but this prevents what is supposed to be a combat spell from being a no-save enemy detector in investigative situations.

 

[Pielorinho]

If you can't figure out how to use my advice, I'm sorry I failed to make it clear enough. It is too bad, because I've used this system for a LONG time. It has NEVER failed to grant a clear answer. If you stop trying to look for cracks and give it an honest try, you'll see that it is really easy and very effective.

The subtext of my questions was, of course, that my system works perfectly well, too, and that you haven't given my system an honest try, either. Ultimately I see no problem with your system except that there may be times where the caster and the DM disagree over what constitutes an "ally"; in such cases, I think it increases the fun to give the decision to the player.

But if you find your system more fun and more consistent for yourself, good on ya. Just don't assume that it's obtuseness on my part if I fail to heed your wisdom.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

[edit: double post]

 

[Pielorinho]

Now, on reading Caliban's post, I've changed my mind: this is a lovely way to adjudicate it. Consider the spell's aesthetic. The priest is saying, "Tremble before my god, all who oppose me!" (or, "Feel my god's happy fuzzies, all who assist me!") It's a mind-affecting spell.

If you oppose the priest, no matter how secretively you do so, YOU know you oppose the priest, and you'll tremble. Similarly, if you're on the priest's side, YOU'LL know that, and you'll feel all fuzzy inside.

Having the magic actually affect everyone (but only have a noticeable effect on those who consider themselves allies/enemies) is both logical and elegant, inasmuch as it removes the failsafe-detection trick.

I'd even go so far as to allow a character with Use Magic Device to make a roll -- DC 30, maybe? -- to fake being an ally for the spell's purpose. But that gets wayyy houseruly.

Thanks, Caliban!

Daniel

 

[glass]

As far as I can see, however you rule the 'who gets the bonus to hit' question, the bless'n'detect routine does not work. When you cast detect magic, you discover that a nice spherical area in enchanted.

Am I missing something? Or are you?

glass.

 

[Hypersmurf]

As far as I can see, however you rule the 'who gets the bonus to hit' question, the bless'n'detect routine does not work. When you cast detect magic, you discover that a nice spherical area in enchanted.

Am I missing something? Or are you?

The area is not "50' radius emanation"; it's "Allies in a 50' burst". The area is the allies, not the actual volume of space. It's only allies who are affected.

That's the problem I have with Caliban's ruling - it doesn't actually follow the wording. He's giving the spell an area of "Creatures in a 50' burst", and having allies gain a bonus. Whereas the area is strictly "Allies in a 50' burst". Only allies are affected, and everyone who is affected gains the bonus.

By the wording of the stat block, the 50' sphere does not radiate enchantment, and non-allies do not radiate enchantment. Only allies do.

-Hyp.