Cleave: Give me room to work, my minions!

[HeinorNY]

If that's how the fighter would like to spend his last moments on earth I'd say that is perfectly fine. When the Tarrasque takes a chunk out of him, he'll learn his lesson.

It's all circunstancial. The Power still sucks and could have a better development.

 

[D'karr]

That's not a given, actually. We have no actual stats for minions other than the kobold minion.

Vampirespawn from mini cards that are months out of date tell us... next to nothing.

And lumping all minions into the same one hit category doesn't either.

 

[arscott]

Cleave won't work on the rats. It specifically says "opponent".

You'll have to use a bag of kobolds.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

The Power still sucks and could have a better development.

You are entitled to think the power sucks, however, the example you've given for why you think it sucks is the most feeble drek I have ever read. Do you think that a rule has to be totally air-tight against the biggest BS interpretation to have any merit? Does logic, imagery, spirit, or playability not factor in at all?

It is so incredibly obvious that the "bag of rats" trick is NOT a possible interpretation of the rules for Cleave, that the rules shouldn't have to state otherwise.

Fitz

 

[Green Knight]

Three words: Bag of rats.

You really think people are gonna carry around bags full of rats just so they can attack the rats and cleave a tougher opponent? Who in their right mind would go through all that trouble just to score 3 points of damage on a bad guy when they could be inflicting 1d10+5 damage? Who in their right mind would forego the use of a shield or a two-handed weapon so that they'd have a free hand for their bag of rats? And who in their right mind thinks they're gonna get anywhere doing 3 points of damage per round on the BBEG or the aformentioned Tarrasque? Will the Fighter even be able to carry enough rats to inflict enough Cleave hits to kill the guy?

Complaining about this is stupid, because Cleave is pretty much useless unless the Cleave attack is used on a minion. When the guy dies in one hit then 3 points of damage is great. But when a guy has 200+ Hit Points, you're not gonna get very far with him by trying to nickle and dime him with your Cleaves.

 

[The Little Raven]

Three words: Bag of rats.

This is predicated on the DM allowing nonsense like this.

Luckily for me and my group, I'm not silly like that.

 

[HeinorNY]

You are entitled to think the power sucks, however, the example you've given for why you think it sucks is the most feeble drek I have ever read. Do you think that a rule has to be totally air-tight against the biggest BS interpretation to have any merit? Does logic, imagery, spirit, or playability not factor in at all?

It is so incredibly obvious that the "bag of rats" trick is NOT a possible interpretation of the rules for Cleave, that the rules shouldn't have to state otherwise.

Fitz

I don't think it sucks because of the Bag of rats. I think it's a poor rule because fo the bag of rats.

I think it sucks because it makes no sense. Why should the adjacent enemy receive 3 pts of damage? The rules doesn't take into account the adjacent target's AC. What if the adjacent is invisible, what if he is under the Displacement spell?
And why 3 pts of damage? The 18 STR fighter with a greataxe and the 12 STR fighter with a dagger both deal 3 pts of damage? What if I'm wielding a Flaming sword? Shouldn't the adjacent enemy get some fire damage too? What about a poisoned dagger, shouldn't the adjacent enemy be poisoned too? What if I deal 1 pt of damage to the primary target, does the adjacent take 3 damage?

And I think it sucks because the rule got worse. 3E Cleave was just good and simple, hit an enemy and gain an attack against other enemy. Too powerful for 4E? Make it per-encounter. Don't like it? Make it an attack roll against two adjacent targets, if hit, each target receives half-damage.

Automatic 3 pts of damage to adjacent enemy simply sucks.

 

[Green Knight]

And why 3 pts of damage?

Look at Kathra's Strength modifier and you'll have your answer.

The 18 STR fighter with a greataxe and the 12 STR fighter with a dagger both deal 3 pts of damage?

No. The 18 Str Fighter deals 4 points of damage while the 12 Str Fighter deals 1 point.

 

[HeinorNY]

You really think people are gonna carry around bags full of rats just so they can attack the rats and cleave a tougher opponent?

Of course not, you don't need to make all that effort to convince me otherwise. As I've said ins this thread "It won't accomplish anything useful really, it's serves only to show how some rules could be better designed, or should not even exist."

Luckily for me and my group, I'm not silly like that.

The same in my group, but the rules is still poor.

 

[HeinorNY]

Look at Kathra's Strength modifier and you'll have your answer.



No. The 18 Str Fighter deals 4 points of damage while the 12 Str Fighter deals 1 point.

If this is correct, the rule sucks a little less.