Cleave: Give me room to work, my minions!

[occam]

I've been playing a 3.5e fighter from 2nd to 4th level, and in about 20 long fights (coming to maybe 200 combat rounds, if not more), I've successfully cleaved through and damaged a second target exactly once. And that was against a handful of muckdwellers that we were annihilating anyway.

So far it's been a waste of a feat slot. 4e Cleave would be a thousand times better.

There's a 12th-level barbarian in one of my games, with the usual Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave. In playing from about 4th to 12th level, I can recall her cleaving maybe one time, and it didn't really matter.

 

[Merlin the Tuna]

It's no more difficult to imagine than, say, an enemy dropping you to -29 HPs with a single blow, and you (i.e. by rolling a nat 20 on your "recovery roll") miraculously jumping back to fray the next round without *any* healing at all ("Just kidding, guys! It only *looked* like my guts were spilled, but I'm actually feeling fine!").

You're jumping between reference frames here. 3E Cleave implies that you cut (or stabbed?) a guy in half. 4E has no such implication; -29 HP doesn't have any implications in 4E besides "you are unconscious right now." You're applying 3E assumptions to a 4E situation where they don't apply.

 

[Wormwood]

There's a 12th-level barbarian in one of my games, with the usual Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave. In playing from about 4th to 12th level, I can recall her cleaving maybe one time, and it didn't really matter.

Yep. Cleave just sits there on your character sheet for the majority of your character's career. Sorta like clothing and flasks of oil.

 

[wherwrthal]

'With a mighty slash, Thogdor batters the dragon. In pain, it lashes out accidentally killing a kobold cowering behind it.' (or is knocked into it, etc)

I had not considered it this way. Hmmm....
It even works if you attack the minion and not the BBEG.

The feeble kobold staggers and juts it horn into Thogdor's shin.

 

[Primal]

Regarding cleaving through an enemy: remember, HP loss can be fatigue or morale or being thrown off balance. Any of these can easily be visualized happening in combat.

And by that logic, you can almost justify the "bag of rats". Nothing will mess up your strategy quite like charging at your enemy only to discover that he's maniacally banging away at a squirming bag of rats.

If HP loss is supposed to represent -- at least in part -- fatigue and loss or morale, then you should lose HP due to becoming tired (i.e. due to any strenuous activity, such as fighting and running). And wouldn't it also be mechanically consistent that you could inflict non-lethal damage to your opponents with an Intimidation check?

 

[Primal]

You're jumping between reference frames here. 3E Cleave implies that you cut (or stabbed?) a guy in half. 4E has no such implication; -29 HP doesn't have any implications in 4E besides "you are unconscious right now." You're applying 3E assumptions to a 4E situation where they don't apply.

I should have mentioned that my example of dropping down to -29 HP was supposed to represent a situation in which you die at -30 HP (i.e. your have 60 HP). It's a bit problematic, storywise -- you cannot describe any effects of such blows, because the PC might "miraculously" recover and jump back to fray, even if he had been hanging within an inch of his life. Seems a little boring if the DM always tells the players that "Alright, he's down, but I can't yet tell you whether he's unconscious, depressed or bleeding to death..."

3E Cleave doesn't imply that you're cutting anyone in half, at least I don't remember seeing any reference to it. IMHO it implies that whenever you drop a foe in battle, you gain a momentary "combat advantage" against your other adjacent opponents (who are momentarily distracted) and therefore can make a new attack ("follow through"). Note that this is even supported mechanically -- if 3E Cleave implied that you cut your opponents in half, you'd use the same attack roll (as it would be the same attack that is carried through). Anyway, that's how I read it.

 

[Primal]

Primal- No, it isn't a valid interpretation of the rule. It is AN interpretation. A wrong interpretation sustained by a crunch-monkey and flying in the face of the spirit of the rule.

Seriously, I despise the gamers that attempt these types of rules-mangling just so they can achieve some advantage not otherwise allowed.

Attempting a cleave so that a non-reach weapon can attack a foe at range? Cheesy and should not be allowed even if the rules don't prohibit it. And the player that tried it should be thumped about the head and shoulders for being bad.

Bob: So I attack the huge dragon with my sword. My cleave will hit the kobold that is on the back side, roughly 15' away because he's next to the dragon.
DM: Go away, Bob. I reject you.

Oh, I think it's "valid" in the sense that the text is vague enough to allow it (therefore it is not a "wrong" interpretation). And isn't it completely in spirit of 4E -- high-flying cinematic stunts that defy logical explanations (I'm looking at you, Warlord!)? Sarcasm aside, you can deny (or even beat up) a player who tries to abuse the rules this way, but the fact is that I know a *LOT* of players (two in my own group, to boot) who'd gleefully attempt to pull something like this -- in the middle of combat, of course.

 

[Primal]

There's a 12th-level barbarian in one of my games, with the usual Power Attack/Cleave/Great Cleave. In playing from about 4th to 12th level, I can recall her cleaving maybe one time, and it didn't really matter.

Odd. My 16th level fighter has used those feats during every session (those sessions that had combat encounters, anyway). I've benefited from Cleave and Great Cleave so many times that I can't even begin to count them (often those extra attacks every round or so have saved the whole party).

 

[D'karr]

the fact is that I know a *LOT* of players (two in my own group, to boot) who'd gleefully attempt to pull something like this -- in the middle of combat, of course.

Anecdotal evidence is usually not very representative. Two players does not a *LOT* make. Even though I usually have no pity for self-inflicted wounds, I feel for you if that group is what guides your frame of reference.

 

[Squire James]

The only time I'd bring a bag (of holding full) of rats to a dragon fight is if I planned on feeding the rats to the dragon in exchange for time to escape! Then, of course, you still have to worry about the dragon replying with something like, "Do I look like a cat? Roll initiative!"