Cleave houserule - against bag of snails

Darklone

Registered User
This is actually a pretty old houserule and I used it for some time already...

You can only get one additional attack with Greatcleave per round per opponent.

This was included to prevent bag of snail tactics and to adress the problem I had that the BBEG fighter was stronger alone than accompanied by 20 mooks.

Thoughts anyone?
 

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Easy. Fighter stands in melee range of three mooks and one big baddy. He uses his iterative attacks on the mooks and cleaves each time into the big bad boy.

Honestly, it worked better with 3.0 whirlwind... but it's still something I don't like.
 

Darklone said:
Easy. Fighter stands in melee range of three mooks and one big baddy. He uses his iterative attacks on the mooks and cleaves each time into the big bad boy.

Oh, I gotcha. The answer there is to get tougher mooks. It's not really that the fighter is getting free attacks at the BBEG, rather he's attacking the BBEG and some wimpy weasels happen to be in the way. I really don't see a problem.
 

What's good for the wizard should be good for the fighter. Three mooks (if they are truly mooks) accompanying a big baddy are three charmed enemies against him. Alone, he'd be better off. Three mooks, in this case, whether against a fighter or a wizard are hindrances because it's a high-level fight. Wouldn't blame the fighter for turning a baddy's inferior forces against him... blame the baddy for bringing garbage along to fight with him.

This is more of DM-error than player-exploit.

ciaran
 
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But it's not really an exploit either. Say the BBEG has an AC of 28 and 300 hit points. Now, say he has 4 mooks, each with an AC of 14 and 10 hit points. Now take the big-bad-nasty-fighter PC. Rather than look at it as thought the fighter is trying to hit AC 14, look at as the fighter trying to hit AC 28. It just so happens that he's bad enough at his current level that merely being in the way of his swing could kill the mook.

I really think this is a matter of perspective. The "this is wrong" camp views the fighter getting extra attacks by attacking the mooks. I view the fighter simply attacking the tough guy like normal, but it just so happens that the mooks, who are wimpy enough to drop in one hit and aren't that hard to hit in the first place, are in his way.

If the mooks don't represent a real challenge anyway, meaning if they can be easily used to Cleave off of, then what's the problem? After all, if that's the case, then their presence has no effect on the EL of the encounter to begin with. In effect, a fighter that is cleaving off of the mooks and hitting the BBEG with each cleave is simply proving that the presence of the mooks make little to no difference in the overall difficulty of the encounter. In other words, he's proving that they might as well not be there.
 

It's not a problem any more, since the bucket of snails now is treated as a Swarm. So, a Snail Swarm would only be one target, leading to only one Cleave. Anyone want to figure out the stats for a Snail Swarm?

A better houserule, IMO, is that the person you Cleave into must be adjacent to your original target. Right now, I see people kill target A in front of them, and Cleave 180 degrees around into the guy behind them. That's just stupid.
Sure, it's still theoretically possible to get 5 Cleaves into the big guy this way, but it's far less abusable in general.
 

A better houserule, IMO, is that the person you Cleave into must be adjacent to your original target. Right now, I see people kill target A in front of them, and Cleave 180 degrees around into the guy behind them. That's just stupid.

That completely nerfs the feat though - and it makes cool Batman-style moves where you eliminate the guy behind you with the bad guy in front of you impossible.

Less cool stuff happening = terrible house rule.

The only thing that needs to be done is:

"You must cleave into a creature you haven't cleaved into this round if you can."

That stops the bag-of-rats trick because after the first hit on the BBEG you'd have to turn and smack all of the rats before hitting the BBEG again.

Of course, if you play with the 3.5 nerf on Whirlwind Attack the point is moot, as noone in their right mind would ever take that garbage feat in the first place.

-Frank
 

Darklone said:
Easy. Fighter stands in melee range of three mooks and one big baddy. He uses his iterative attacks on the mooks and cleaves each time into the big bad boy.

Honestly, it worked better with 3.0 whirlwind... but it's still something I don't like.
If the BBEG still has mooks alive and fighting, why is he himself within melee range of the fighter?
 


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