Cleaving after an AoO

[Scion]

Remember everyone, cleave isnt about mowing through 'weak' opponents, it is only about getting some benefit out of a finishing blow. One could even cleave off of the bbeg into his minions in the right circumstance. It could also be said that it is 'unfair' that they were attacked after the person already used their attack on the guy next to them.

Still, it isnt about 'weak' opponents, it is about getting a benefit out of the finishing blow (a twohanded pickaxe crit from a rageing, powerattacking barbarian and a bursting xxx weapon could take down a full hp massive creature, but it would still allow for a cleave). Much like getting an extra attack in after a trip or your opponent being unarmed after a successful disarm.

 

[sfedi]

It's funny how all these guys say that they would allow Cleave in an AoO, but then they create absurd rulings to prevent abuse from it.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

If weak opponents are going to die off of an AoO than they're gonna die of regular attacks aswel and are still (as u put them) liabilities.

There is an important qualitative difference here. An irrelevant creature is one that is neither an asset nor liability. The peculiar thing about AoO+Cleave is that it turns something irrelevant into a huge liability under certain conditions. I find that distastefully gamey, whether it is done on purpose or not.

 

[Scion]

it turns something irrelevant into a huge liability under certain conditions.

Sortof like not being able to breathe water? It is largely irrelevant, until certain very specific conditions arise.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

And under what special conditions is being able to breathe water a liability?

 

[Joker]

But how are the creatures any less of a liability during "regular" combat if the chance that the stronger fighter gets cleaved is the same as during an AoO attack?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Still, it isnt about 'weak' opponents, it is about getting a benefit out of the finishing blow (a twohanded pickaxe crit from a rageing, powerattacking barbarian and a bursting xxx weapon could take down a full hp massive creature, but it would still allow for a cleave). Much like getting an extra attack in after a trip or your opponent being unarmed after a successful disarm.

No, my criticism regarding AoO+Cleave is "about" whatever I say it is, even if my judgement may or may not be in error. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate arguments against hypothetical criticisms no one has actually made are relevant (e.g. it would be "unfair" to cleave into a minion after killing the bbeg).

 

[Scion]

The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate arguments against hypothetical criticisms no one has actually made are relevant.

Similarly, to me, Cleave and Great Cleave are feats that make weak opponents irrelevant.

Still, it isnt about 'weak' opponents, it is about getting a benefit out of the finishing blow

Care to rephrase ridley? As at least one person has said exactly what I was refering to. Strangely, I was responding to it just after they said it, only your post popped up while I was typing it. But since it was still very close to it, and you were talking to the same person, it should have worked out all right anyway.

 

[Scion]

And under what special conditions is being able to breathe water a liability?

I believe that you have misread what I said.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Care to rephrase ridley? As at least one person has said exactly what I was refering to. Strangely, I was responding to it just after they said it, only your post popped up while I was typing it. But since it was still very close to it, and you were talking to the same person, it should have worked out all right anyway.

Insofar as you appear to be responding to Firelance, it appears to me you do not understand his arguments at all.

Perhaps you are responding to a post I missed?