Cleaving with ranged weapons?

[Autoschediastician]

Great thread.
First off, I agree that for the Ranged Cleave feat, the Str should be at least 15, that only stands to reason.
Secondly, just curious what you guys think, but Cleave has been described, accurately IMO, as the swing (or thrust or what-have-you) going through more than one enemy. So, then what would Great Cleave be described as?
For example, a barbarian is using a greataxe, and is able to use Great cleave, does he spin in circles until he fails a roll or what? The way I always invisioned it was that it would be one swing after another, using the same momentum. As a loose example kayaking (sp?) or a better one, twirling a quarterstaff. Just curious
-mikey

 

[Hypersmurf]

Secondly, just curious what you guys think, but Cleave has been described, accurately IMO, as the swing (or thrust or what-have-you) going through more than one enemy.

That works as a visual for certain attacks, but not for others.

Basically, Cleave (or Great Cleave) grants an extra attack. If it works for the given situation to describe it as a single swing dropping several people, great. But don't get locked in to that visual, in case it doesn't make sense. (Cleaving three people in completely different directions with a rapier, for example.)

-Hyp.

 

[RigaMortus]

I beg to differ...

yes i agree that if one is behind you and another is infront "flanking" you its difficult to visuallise this particular attack but there is nothing saying you cant "slash" with a piercing weapon in an arc. you essentially treat the longspear as a quarterstaff, brace it against your body and swing it in a circle arround you.

Just because a weapons is listed as a particular attack type (piercing/slashing/bludgeoning) doesnt mean it cant be used as a different type. A longsword can be used to thrust with its point, has a cutting edge which means it can also slash, and has a flat blade and pommel that means it can bludgeon. but now we going into something entirely different

From this graphic, it appears that there is only a 5' difference between the guy with the Longspear, and the kobold. And since you can't attack something that is 5' or closer to you, I don't think you'd be able to do what is displayed here.

Also, since you are being meticulous with where in the 5' squares everyone is placed, are you taking the same care in measuring the distance between the start of your Reach and the second kobold? For example, if the Longspear is 12' long, and the second kobold is 15' away, you are short about 3'...

 

[Squire James]

Regarding the illustration, I normally assume that everyone's roughly in the center of their squares. Secondly, the terms "threaten" and "attack" are different. The lancer threatens both targets, because they are both 10' away. He can only resolve each attack on one of them, unless some special rule says otherwise. Like Cleave.

The rules function independently from what make sense, so it is up to the DM to justify how a rule works. If this means the fighter skewered someone, then moved the encumbered lance over and skewered someone else, well that's what it means (lack of rules about position changes and such notwithstanding). The DM could also explain a use of Cleave by noting that the opponents could have been anywhere in their squares, and something like that illustration is what happened.

Sorry if this is a hijack, but it is my opinion that Whirlwind Attack is a VERY weak feat compared to Great Cleave, which is odd since the latter is a lot easier to get! I don't think someone should need to take a prestige class to make WA useful, my House Rule for that feat reads something like:

You may replace each attack you make during a full-attack action with a Whirlwind Attack that consists of a normal attack on each foe within 5' of you. If you do so, apply a -2 penalty to that attack roll.

Great Cleave is still better in some cases (like when you only get a standard action to attack), but at least this gives you a little something for the chain of 5 feats (2 of which, Dodge and Spring Attack, are a bit weak anyway).