Cleric nerf feedback.

[IndyPendant]

Now that I have buffed the sorceror to my satisfaction, it's time to attack the two overpowered classes--cleric and druid.

Druid's tough. I'll deal with that later, in another post.

It's hard to argue that the cleric is not overpowered. The issue, however, is how overpowered. I think it's just slight; too many benefits, and no reason not to PrC. I think I have addressed that with the following changes. Please tell me what you think.

Cleric:

The cleric no longer gets medium and heavy armour proficiency as a class ability.

The cleric only gets one domain ability. He may choose which ability to retain. He still gains spell access from both domains as normal.

The cleric's domain spells/day are based on his class level, and *not* his spellcaster level. (So in particular, PrC's that give +1 divine caster level do not get factored in when determining the cleric's number of domain spells per day.) The effects of the domain spells the cleric already possesses are determined by the cleric's caster level as normal.

 

[Jdvn1]

... Ouch. I think you give the Cleric ample reason to avoid PrC'ing ever.

 

[Nifft]

Urk. That's not a class I'd play.

IMHO, Clerics should be pushed towards flavor at the expense of raw power, but not reduced too much in power -- they are great, but not *that* overpowered.

-- N

 

[Crothian]

There true power comes from the spelllist. I'd shave it down depending on the god worshiped.

 

[FireLance]

I don't mind clerics retaining medium and heavy armor. They are supposed to be backup fighters, after all, and armor is more defensive than offensive in nature.

I think the domain abilities help to individualize different clerics and I would allow them to keep them both. If you think the cleric is too front-loaded, then it might be better to stagger the domains, i.e. a cleric only gets one domain at 1st level, and gets the next at 9th level.

The cleric's domain spells/day are based on his class level, and *not* his spellcaster level. (So in particular, PrC's that give +1 divine caster level do not get factored in when determining the cleric's number of domain spells per day.) The effects of the domain spells the cleric already possesses are determined by the cleric's caster level as normal.

This I agree with (and have been toying with before). Essentially, domain slots are a class ability of the cleric and not tied to cleric spellcasting. A cleric gets his 1st-level domain slot at 1st level, his 2nd-level domain slot at 3rd level, his 3rd-level domain slot at 5th level and so on until he gets his 9th-level domain slot at 17th level. I think the PrCs that advance the base cleric spellcasting progression are attractive enough.

 

[Drugged Dwarf]

I believe that you are very very right in the fact that clerics are a little overpowered in the fact that they are practically 'begged' to take a PrC. Its true. I admit that.I have a dwarven cleric fetish and I understand how it is. All they have to do is find the right PrC for their character that that want, take a couple of feats and its almost as if there is no real change whatsoever. True, they might have a little bit less health, and they might not gain as much in the way of saves of BAB as they used to, but in the end it doesn't make much difference anyway.

However, I beleive you are wrong in limiting their domain spell abilities and their armour proficencies, although I do kind of like the domain idea. The major factor that most players who say 'Ho! Look at me! I know this book from top to bottom I know every rule in there! blah blah blah!' (damn bastards... always make me feel inferior...) seem not to notice is that ALL DIVINE CASTERS can only get their spells 'ONCE PER DAY'. thats right. Its true. Read that section on magic and its right there. In your face. Ha ha ha ha ha ha...

This makes it very hard to play a cleric, especially if you have a DM that enforces the fact that divine spellcasters NEED to sleep 8 hours a day before they can get their spells back. If ambushed late at night, and not allowed to go go straight back to bed for the Sleep Interruption rule in the same section to take effect, some clerics will offically miss their hour of prayer, and not have any spells that day. If anything, that limits them to becoming fighters for that day (hence the need for the armour).

Also, it may not be noticed that much, but clerics aren't really relied on for firepower. (well.. I don't know what PrCs you play, or how many flame strikes you take). They are mostly meant to be more defensive and buffing than offensive. You have your blade barriers and your Flame Strikes and whatever, but even those spells pale in comparasion to the wide massive damage a wizard (and psionists - god that class is so broken it scares me) can dish out. So we have a cleric, who for the first few rounds is spilling out spells - or not spilling out spells, depending on what happened that moring/afternoon/nighttime - before wading into combat to do battle. To give them only Light armour profeiency is extremely harsh, as they ARE relied on to be fighters in the end, and as their skills will pale in comparason to other martial fighters will be absolutely massacred.

Besides, last thing we need is for clerics to become like wizards and run around screaming in terror when they run out of spells.

Anyway, once again I am going off topic...

My idea is that if you are going to be such a meanie and limit their armour profiency, then at LEAST give them medium armour. You might hate them, but not that much.

The only one domain ability thing is doable. Not that harsh at all, and they can actually live with it. Come on guys lets face it: Abjuration spells at +1 per level? At level 10? How many times had THAT come in handy?

and I LOVE your domain rule! that rocks! I am so never showing my DMs this page becasue they will use it like the bastards they are!

However: I believe there are some prestige classes that A) grant you a bonus doman and B)need a domain to get into. In which case, I believe they should keep THAT domain spell, and when they gain a new bonus domain, gain spell slots for it to be kept in as well. It would make sense as that would be the granted power they would develop in thanks TO the prestige class.

Ok I think I will stop posting now... yeah..

 

[RisnDevil]

Do the rules require you to use the WHOLE hour to prepare your spells? Either way, although, yes, they can noly prepare spells once per day, to so regularly interrupt their ability to sleep and get their eight hours that they cannot prepare their spells is unfair to the cleric. Period. Secondly, many parties I have been in don't even have the clerics pull guard in the middle of the night so they can get their sleep, and WON"T WAKE THEM WHEN THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED because they so badly want the cleric to get his sleep.

How about seomthing in the middle.....

Leave them with spontaneous casting of cure/cause.

Let them keep domain abilities, and armor proficiences.

Only give them one domain at level one, but no domain slot.
They can spontaneously cast the spells out of that domain also.

Give them another domain at a level of you choosing, say level five.

They can only spontaneous cast domain spells of a level that they have attained from cleric alone, no PrCs.
Meaning a Wiz3/Clr3/MyTh6 could only spontaneously cast 1st and 2nd level cure/cause or domain spells,of which he would only have one domain at that point, regardless of what level spells they could actually cast.

Levels in PrCs don't add to levels in Cleric for turn/rebuking...(I think it may be like that already).

How does that sound? The spontaneous domain casting is from the other "Possible Cleric CHange" post. Pretty much right down the middle. Reduces the desire to take PrCs by making most abilities stop progressing with PrCs, but leaves them generally the same for someone who stays with it....though I think that maybe a straight Cleric may be even more overpowered now...

 

[Aust Diamondew]

I don't see anywhere that it says a cleric can only prepare a given spell once a day.


Clerics can cast as good as wizards (IMO). Recieve d8 hit dice, medium BAB and two good saves and can cast in armor. You either need to reduce their spell casting power or reduce their other benefits more.

But then again I'm an extremist when it comes to clerics.

 

[Afrodyte]

Aust: I'm right with you.

I think the cloistered cleric from UA is the model I'd start with and add other boons based upon the deity and domains chosen. So, lower HD (d6 or even d4), poor BAB, no armor proficiencies, and even a poor Fortitude save in exchange for more domain casting abilities, domain bonuses, and perhaps metamagic feats. In fact, I'd probably make the cleric very close to the wizard in design, but the different domains and spell lists should offer different things for both.

 

[cmanos]

I am playing a Cleric of the God of Strength in my current campaign and I am havinga difficult time figuring out a PrC. Reaping Mauler would be fun as I am taking him the way of the wrestler, but I wouldn't be able to do it until 12th level or higher. War Priest would be OK, but the spell level progression has me questioning.

I think the reasons they made Cleric and Druid more powerful is because no one wanted to play them.. Clerics were just walking ambulances. Now they are SO much more.