clerical domains/turning

[ed.han]

apologies if this has been discussed to death previously. i went back a few pages and can't seem to find the search function.

i'm somewhat dissatisfied w/ what i perceive to be a lack of thematic unity between clerical domains and the power to turn/rebuke. if i'm a cleric w/ the fire and strength domains, is there a logical reason for why i should be able to affect undead in either way?

i'm working up a rules variant for clerics & domains that unites these things as a function of the domain by making turn/rebuke a component of domain. so for example: in what i'm doing, instead of turn/rebuke undead, a cleric w/ the animal domain can turn/rebuke creatures of the animal type (must choose 1 at domain selection, may not change choice once made). the domain also does other things--i dropped armor proficiency (heavy) and now the domains all grant 1 or 2 bonus feats, and i add 1 or 2 class skills.

but has someone already done the heavy lifting on such a modification?

ed

 

[Li Shenron]

The 3.0 PHB (DMG?) mentioned that the DM should find alternative uses of channeling positive/negative energy. AFAIK only Divine Feats officially provide alternative uses, and they are always in addiction to the main turn/rebuke use.

Here are some ideas you can think about, and maybe choose one that you find appropriate for your setting:

1) "Turn/rebuke something else" - You can just replace undead with another type, such as outsiders of a certain alignment or subtype, fire-element creatures or other elements, animals, vermins, plants. These categories have been covered in various books already*, so it can be assumed it's safe to use these instead of undead for certain clerics, without changing anything about how turning/rebuking works. Other creature types may be too loose (turning humanoids or aberration is harder to justify).

*unfortunately, always in forms like a feat that allows you to ALSO turn/rebuke a certain group; in your case, give the ability for free and INSTEAD of turn/rebuke undead

2) "Divine feats by default" - Following the same replacement idea, you could give one divine feat for free but remove the standard effect on undead. For example, a cleric focused on war could have Divine Might as the standard ability of channeling (instead of undead).

3) "Domain powers into channeling" - Use each turn/rebuke attempt to activate the domain power. This requires you to sort out which domains work and which don't: domains which give you a special ability 1/day (such as Death or Luck) may be the best, but also sometimes they may be too strong. For example a cleric of luck may use his turning attempts to get the reroll ability (this should be indipendent of having the actual domain).

Some cleric-oriented books might have covered your idea, but I think not the WotC books. I remember that Kalamar's Player's Guide has a list of at least 12-15 alternative uses for those turn attempts per days (tho IIRC in Kalamar they are ADDED for free to the standard use of turning undead), so if you have a friend with that book you may want to take a look at it.

 

[Li Shenron]

Ok, now I've read better and you want to do something slightly different of what I understood first, but I still hope I gave you some useful ideas...

 

[Thia Halmades]

Morning Ed.

This is coming up regularly in my campaign; I have a Fire/Something Else Cleric (all I know is the little dude loves burning) and we've gone round on the question "So... why do the Undead actually care?" The base answer is "Faith is faith, and they fear said faith." Not good enough for some. Of course, they're in a Ravenloft campaign, and not being able to Turn is asking for it. That aside.

- In AD&D 2nd Ed., Druid wasn't a "class" as much as it was a build based on domains at the time, IIRC. What you seem to be talking about is doing something similar; there's a thread for spontaneous casting which goes along similar lines here that I was involved in, but it may be back a few pages.

- Are you looking to modify the Turn function only, or the entire "Channel Positive Energy" bit? One of the earlier suggestions was that a Cleric spontaneously casts their domain spells, but then must mem heal spells. I put that to my players and they ruled it down almost instantly. *shrug* However, if you took Fire and could then Turn/Rebuke Water types, instead of Undead types, the only question I would have is...

- How useful is that, really? Is it something they're likely to see? The reason for the Cleric (and all clerics) to TU is because they are a prevalent enemy type and they have some truly brutal powers on them which can ruin someone's day in a hurry. I nearly killed the party with a small group of Ghouls in a basement. What saved them? A well timed (and successful) turn.

I don't see why the basics wouldn't work, but if you're in a world with any sort of concentration of the undead, you'll have a huge problem if no one can Turn.

 

[ed.han]

li: thanks for the thoughts. some of what you've suggested is stuff i'm already doing--did some writing on the train last night and this morning and it's coming along nicely IMHO. :>

thai: and a good morning to you, too! re: your points:

1. yes, i now recollect that's how things were in AD&D2. honestly, i think that conceptually, that may have been a superior approach.
2. only turning, although for some domains, i may change the spontaneous casting (e.g., animal and plant domains, maybe they spontaneously cast summon nature's ally as per a druid).
3. two domains (death & sun) would retain the ability to turn undead specifically (death gets the choice to turn or rebuke). so clerics interested in playing the core PHB version would still have the ability to do so in some cases. you're right to question the exact utility of such a change, but now that i've looked at the alternatives, i think there's an argument to be made that clerics are too darned useful as is. by making turning more limited, i think that it might have the effect of making the players appreciate turning. JMHO.

sidenote: i'm not crazy about spontaneous casting of domain spells--i think that you might encounter some balance problems with a few domains (e.g. knowledge, level 1: identify) comes to mind.

ed

 

[DamionW]

This is coming up regularly in my campaign; I have a Fire/Something Else Cleric (all I know is the little dude loves burning) and we've gone round on the question "So... why do the Undead actually care?" The base answer is "Faith is faith, and they fear said faith." Not good enough for some. Of course, they're in a Ravenloft campaign, and not being able to Turn is asking for it. That aside.

- Are you looking to modify the Turn function only, or the entire "Channel Positive Energy" bit? One of the earlier suggestions was that a Cleric spontaneously casts their domain spells, but then must mem heal spells. I put that to my players and they ruled it down almost instantly. *shrug* However, if you took Fire and could then Turn/Rebuke Water types, instead of Undead types, the only question I would have is...

- How useful is that, really? Is it something they're likely to see? The reason for the Cleric (and all clerics) to TU is because they are a prevalent enemy type and they have some truly brutal powers on them which can ruin someone's day in a hurry. I nearly killed the party with a small group of Ghouls in a basement. What saved them? A well timed (and successful) turn.

I don't see why the basics wouldn't work, but if you're in a world with any sort of concentration of the undead, you'll have a huge problem if no one can Turn.

Wouldn't you know it Thia, I'm having these specific concerns in my Elemental based campaign world. I considered limiting healing magic to memorized only, but I knew that would nerf the clerics too much, so I had to figure out what I wanted to do. Then again, I'm pretty much rebuilding their spell lists from the ground up. It's a tough question to crack. For me, the idea of just having faith connecting you somehow intrinsically to the Positive or Negative Plane seems odd. Yet, that's the way the game is designed at core for the cleric class. I'd be interested to see what you come up with Ed

 

[ed.han]

damion, et al:

here's an example of what i'm doing:

animal domain
granted power: you can spontaneously cast summon nature's ally spells rather than cure spells.
turn: a cleric may rebuke, command, or bolster creatures of the animal type and turn or destroy creatures of the aberration type.
bonus feats: weapon focus (spear)
bonus class skill(s): handle animal (cha)

domain spells remain as they are. clerics would get 4 skill points/level, not 2 and lose the ability to turn undead and the armor proficiency (heavy) feat. in cases where clerics only get 1 added class skill, the cleric receives a +2 bonus to checks w/ that skill.

if you're interested in limiting the prevalence of spontaneous cure, i'd suggest perhaps making it domain-specific and cherry-pick those w/ which it actually makes sense (healing of course, perhaps good, maybe protection & war). otherwise, perhaps summon monster for those cases where there's no clear-cut & obvious choice?

ed

 

[DamionW]

Well my problem is I'm not going to be using RAW clerics per se in my campaign for the most part, so it's not spell list +2 domains + turning = cleric. There will be Reverends of the Wind, Friars of the Flame Brotherhood, Deacons of the Golden Stone, and Ministers of the Waves. They will have higher spells slots/day equal to a Spirit Shaman, but still have to prepare them, and half of those prepared spells have to come from their element specific list (Air spells include lightning effects, speed effects and divinations. Fire spells include fire effects and courage/fear/rage effects. Earth spells include rock/metal related spells, strength buffs, etc.) The other half can come from their elemental spells or a "general" spell list that includes basic ministry spells such as Bless, Aid, Consecrate, as well as healing/inflicting magic. I left sponaneous healing in as a function of their pure faith, but replaced undead turning with elemental turning because there are virtually no undead in my campaign world.

 

[ed.han]

hm. sadly, i don't think we get any synergies, given our different approaches. ah, well. i do like how you've expanded the elements to make them richer, though.

ed

 

[DamionW]

hm. sadly, i don't think we get any synergies, given our different approaches. ah, well. i do like how you've expanded the elements to make them richer, though.

ed

Yeah probably not, but I am trying to develop a druid which is a cross between a RAW druid, a cleric of Elhonna, and an enchanter. Some of your work on the animal plant areas could help me there. Any kind of thought outside the box on divine casters is worth me looking into at least.