clerical domains/turning

[ed.han]

well, here's what i'm doing for the plant domain:

granted power: you may spontaneously cast summon nature's ally spells rather than cure spells.
turn: A cleric may either rebuke, command, or bolster plants or turn or destroy plants. the cleric must choose which upon selecting this domain and may not change it.
bonus feats: extra turning, skill focus (knowledge) (nature)
bonus class skill(s): knowledge (nature) (int)

in posting this, i've just realized i need to address what happens if you "double-down" on one (or more) of the domain-related stuff.

ed

 

[DamionW]

well, here's what i'm doing for the plant domain:

granted power: you may spontaneously cast summon nature's ally spells rather than cure spells.
turn: A cleric may either rebuke, command, or bolster plants or turn or destroy plants. the cleric must choose which upon selecting this domain and may not change it.
bonus feats: extra turning, skill focus (knowledge) (nature)
bonus class skill(s): knowledge (nature) (int)

in posting this, i've just realized i need to address what happens if you "double-down" on one (or more) of the domain-related stuff.

ed

Well, just at first look, how many of the nature's allies are plant creatures? Most fall under the animal type like bears and lions, etc, with some elemental planar creatures. That seems to overlap a lot with the Animal domain. You could have some kind of skill bonus when using diplomacy with plant creatures, or a certain empathy to understand an otherwise alien mindset. Just kicking some ideas for you here.

 

[ed.han]

OK, keying off of what you said: instead of nature's ally, maybe w/ the plant domain you can spend a turn attempt get a diplomacy check bonus equal to your cleric levels? at clr 10 or higher, you could offset the -10 penalty for trying a diplomacy check in combat.

besides, it's not like there's a lot of creatures of the plant type.

ed

 

[DamionW]

Yeah, there aren't many plant creatures in the first place, but if the cleric is going to select Plant domain at all, and if I follow your logic, you should keep the turning as turn/rebuking (what few) plant creatures there are. As for granted power, you could spontaneously cast entangles or spike growths or something like that. Or you could Speak with Plants X/day or something like that. In general though, if there's an appropriate creature type or subtype associated with the domain (plant, animal, {Good}, {Chaos}, {Fire}, etc.) I'd keep that as the turning effect and develop a different granted power. Also, those domains that originally had granted turning powers (Water domain for example), let you either rebuke the associated type and turn the opposite type at will, they don't lock you into one or the other at creation. You have to decide if you want that or not.

 

[Sadrik]

I like what you guys have got going here. I had a bad experience with the turning undead mechanic.

So, I just came off of a campaign that I ran where they had to deal with a lot of undead. They had a cleric who just destroyed every encounter and made nearly every fight a 1 or 2 die rolls at best. Yeah, yeah... I shouldnt have run them in to undead if I knew they were that proficient at dealing with them. But that was the campaign they knew they had to deal with a powerful vampire and his minions very early on and so they all started to tweak their characters (especially the cleric) to beating undead. So anyway to make a long story short. In the end of the campaign all the undead encounters were very unthematic and boiled down to a single die roll for the encounter. IMO turn is a bad game mechanic.

How does that corrilate to what you guys are doing? Use as few actual "turn" abilities as you can to "power" these domains. For the animal domain- instead of turning animals. Give them animal empathy ability that has to be powered by their channel ability. How many "roll a die to beat the encounter" abilities do you really want?

I would give the turn undead ability to the sun domain only. And completely axe out *with a giant cleaver* the greater turn undead ability. And get rid of that silly little pelor PrC. Sarcasm aside, use the channel ability to power abilities other than turning- divine feats, other class abilities (like animal empathy) it will make your game better. And hey I'll like what you come up with better too!

 

[Thia Halmades]

To sum up:

- Warning them about undead and then not switching up your enemy roster is what got you greased; IMO, your problem was fixable, but needed tweaking. You went Vampire and stayed the course, which means the PCs were rewarded for putting two & two together and going full bore. Try demons. They don't give a **** how good your turn is.

- ed: you bring up an interesting point about Spontaeous Identifies, but that's not all that bad, and if someone is smart enough to use Div as a base, more power to them. They can still mem it X times per day if they choose and then Spon. Cast. under the current system. Immediate access doesn't break Clerics.

- ed: Your idea about changing up Domain powers isn't a bad one, and again, this goes back to making a Clerics domains actually important. However (love that word. However. Like how it sort of hangs there.) However (oooh...) I don't now if you want to rebuild all of the mechanics from the ground up. Why not bolster their affinity with a direct mechanic, and give the player more reasons to look for plants and plant types. I'm sure there are all sorts of giant chunky Plantimals that could be summoned with some creative editing of the summon nature's ally list.

- Diplomacy is one of the deadliest skills out there; I don't think you want your players talking down your boss MOB mid-fight, and that's the very first thing I see happening. Have you ever seen a Boss blow a Will Save? It's ugly. It's VERY ugly.

- DamionW: Hello! Your problem is a bit more specific, and for your campaign I would outright recommend flipping out 'cure' for 'channel elemental energy' and thus the Cleric automatically has their pre-set domain (Element) and then selects (one?) additional domain, which can never be their elemental opposite domain. Because in your setting Water = Healing, you'll have specific groups of Clerics with specific abilities & objectives. Having a Water Cleric in the party becomes fundamentally different from having a Fire Cleric in the Party. Water Clerics would have Water & Healing as auto-domains. Fire may have Fire & Destruction.

Wendy's. Yum.

 

[ed.han]

damion quoth
if the cleric is going to select plant domain at all, and if i follow your logic, you should keep the turning as turn/rebuking (what few) plant creatures there are. as for granted power, you could spontaneously cast entangles or spike growths or something like that...[snip]...iif there's an appropriate creature type or subtype associated with the domain (plant, animal, {good}, {chaos}, {fire}, etc.) i'd keep that as the turning effect and develop a different granted power.

[nods] yep, you understand my thinking correctly and yeah, that's my plan. :>

damion quoth
also, those domains that originally had granted turning powers (water domain for example), let you either rebuke the associated type and turn the opposite type at will, they don't lock you into one or the other at creation. you have to decide if you want that or not.

yep. i think i do want that, at least for the nonce.

sadrik: yeah, that's unfortunate, but if the players have that kind of information, they invariably--quite often subconsciously, IMX--begin to skew towards optimization. it would make sense for many characters to do that as well, IMHO. however, what you're describing is reading to me an awful lot like a problem of min/max rather than an intrinsic issue w/ the turn mechanic proper. after all, at higher levels, aren't a lot of spells of the "save or die" variety? no offense intended or insult to your players, mind.

thia quoth
immediate access [to identify] doesn't break clerics.

fair enough: it was really an off-the-top-of-my-head comment than a considered criticism, to be sure. :>

thia quoth
i don't now if you want to rebuild all of the mechanics from the ground up. why not bolster their affinity with a direct mechanic, and give the player more reasons to look for plants and plant types. i'm sure there are all sorts of giant chunky plantimals that could be summoned with some creative editing of the summon nature's ally list.

i'm sorry, i believe i may be undercaffeinated. could you enlarge upon this point? i'm not entirely certain i understand your meaning.

ed

 

[DamionW]

- DamionW: Hello! Your problem is a bit more specific, and for your campaign I would outright recommend flipping out 'cure' for 'channel elemental energy' and thus the Cleric automatically has their pre-set domain (Element) and then selects (one?) additional domain, which can never be their elemental opposite domain. Because in your setting Water = Healing, you'll have specific groups of Clerics with specific abilities & objectives. Having a Water Cleric in the party becomes fundamentally different from having a Fire Cleric in the Party. Water Clerics would have Water & Healing as auto-domains. Fire may have Fire & Destruction.

Yeah, my problem is pretty specific, but it goes to the theme of what we're discussing here. RAW clerics can turn/rebuke and spontaneously cure/inflict because they can channel positive or negative energy from the energy planes. They can channel these energies because they are devout, pious people for good or ill purposes. By the RAW mechanic, it doesn't matter which deity you follow, or if you follow a god at all. They gain this ability through sheer force of will and constant prayer. So whether ed's trying to focus on linking turning to domains, or if I'm trying to figure out how to reconcile curing with elemental clerics, we have to ask thematically, what does faith have to do with energy?

In my example, regardless of what element you worship, you fill a specific clerical function. You pray for otherworldly providence and guidance for your devout followers; you call for smiting of the unrighteous, you perform marriage and funeral rites. These are all functions of faith and prayer. So while in my campaign water is the most life-oriented of all elements, I can't limit them to be the only healers if I stick to the RAW model that faith=energy. My question then becomes, does turning come from just being prayerful, or from knowing how undead fit in the religious scheme of things, and utilizing the energy you know you have to target them? My mindset is that if you know nothing about how undead fit into your religious divine order, you should have no power over them. My clerics haven't seen a skeleton or ghoul in generations. That is why they have no power over them. They cure the sick and hurt their enemies all the time, and they have the faith to charge that.

So with ed, he has to figure some of the thematics about how he's tieing faith to energy (plant "energy", animal "energy", positive, negative, whatever). When he figures out what it means to be pious in his world, the mechanics of spontaneous casting and turning creatures should fall in line with those aspects of faith.

 

[Thia Halmades]

*self smack*

Because you're sticking to RAW despite the setting change, barring a few differences. I keep forgetting that. Moo. Moo moo. You are correct, although I still submit that some domains should be barred from your Clerics, and that they might gain Turn/Rebuke counter element in lieu of Undead.

If we're talking about thematics, that's a whole separate question, but you can argue away just about anything. Be undead for a minute. Are you, or are you not afraid, of the piety of others? If the answer is "yes" than it doesn't matter that they've never seen you, it only matters that you're faithful and full of positive energy.

But we're arguing thematics. So what if your Cleric doesn't realize (i.e., doesn't possess the faith themselves) to Turn Undead? They have the POWER. They have the CAPACITY. They can still cast "Heal" and deal 150HP outright. But they may not be able to turn.

Also, per Ravenloft: Sinkholes of Evil, you can give the Undead a +X bonus to resist being turned based on location and as a reflection of the Jungian Collective Subconcious. In a world of monsters, they are the true horrors.

 

[DamionW]

*self smack*

Because you're sticking to RAW despite the setting change, barring a few differences. I keep forgetting that. Moo. Moo moo. You are correct, although I still submit that some domains should be barred from your Clerics, and that they might gain Turn/Rebuke counter element in lieu of Undead.

If we're talking about thematics, that's a whole separate question, but you can argue away just about anything. Be undead for a minute. Are you, or are you not afraid, of the piety of others? If the answer is "yes" than it doesn't matter that they've never seen you, it only matters that you're faithful and full of positive energy.

But we're arguing thematics. So what if your Cleric doesn't realize (i.e., doesn't possess the faith themselves) to Turn Undead? They have the POWER. They have the CAPACITY. They can still cast "Heal" and deal 150HP outright. But they may not be able to turn.

Also, per Ravenloft: Sinkholes of Evil, you can give the Undead a +X bonus to resist being turned based on location and as a reflection of the Jungian Collective Subconcious. In a world of monsters, they are the true horrors.

Not sure what the smacking and mooing is in reference to, but my sticking closely to RAW comes from me having being a novice with 3.X DnD. I have a unified sense of the story I want to run, but I try and stick closer to RAW than most here in the house rules forum because that's my comfort zone where I know I'm being equitable to players that are going to develop my storyline with me. As for my clerics, they definitely can turn/rebuke elementals. Their faith is channeled that way by its nature. And as I envision it, yes, my clerics do have the capacity for undead turning, they just don't know they do. It's similar to how I see vampires in other, modern campaigns. If a rabbi held his torah up to a vampire in my campaign and started reciting hebrew scripture, the bloodsucker would recoil from his conviction alone. That is all predicated on the rabbi understanding what a vampire is and why it hates God and the natural order of life and death that God cherishes. It just happens that the Christian symbol of the cross is the most often cited example. As far as Ravenloft specifically, I don't know much about it at all, never have played it.