clerical domains/turning

[Sadrik]

- Warning them about undead and then not switching up your enemy roster is what got you greased; IMO, your problem was fixable, but needed tweaking. You went Vampire and stayed the course, which means the PCs were rewarded for putting two & two together and going full bore. Try demons. They don't give a **** how good your turn is.

Well, wait a minute. I did switch up my roster and I did give the shortened version of the whole story. And there were some demons btw the vampire was the leader of the cult of Asmoedeus . Regaurdless of all that, the turn undead ability altered me from using some of the coolest villains to their fullest. Let me tell you a party of 7th level characters (no edit- a 7th level cleric) laughs at *technically a fairly difficult encounter* a group of ~50 zombies. What I am hearing you say is: "Thats the way the game is. You as the DM should not use undead." I dont buy that argument. I say the game rule needs altering or omission.

One die roll encounter ender-like abilities should not be around imo. and yes I know that there are 5th+ level spells that have save or die mechanics. The one diference here is that those generally target one person/creature. Turn ability is very reusable and effects more than one creature generally.

sadrik: yeah, that's unfortunate, but if the players have that kind of information, they invariably--quite often subconsciously, IMX--begin to skew towards optimization. it would make sense for many characters to do that as well, IMHO. however, what you're describing is reading to me an awful lot like a problem of min/max rather than an intrinsic issue w/ the turn mechanic proper. after all, at higher levels, aren't a lot of spells of the "save or die" variety? no offense intended or insult to your players, mind.

Min/Max? What that they took PrCs and feats that help them against the dangers they will likely encounter? I dont see a problem with that. I do see a problem when you do that and it is way to powerful against that one thing. That is what I see occuring in 3.x in terms of turning. It completely makes one of the coolest class of villains and makes them punching bags and xp slot machines.

My overarching point is that if you are going to put the effort into making domain specific turn abilities, step away from the turn mechanic and move more toward a divine feat type of thing. Because, if every DM was to avoid placing the types of mosters that the PC's can turn, to rein in the power of the ability, it will make it a virtually dead ability for the PC and worse an untouchable creature type for the DM. I don't think that is what we want, I know I dont want that.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Morning Sadrik.

No, you didn't give me the whole story, hence why I drew the conclusion that you'd simply stuck with the undead the whole time. I agree with you; Turning can be a real nightmare, but I have no problem with the power; my problem is that the power can't be resisted unless you have "Turn Resistance."

You could really mess with your players and give the Undead a saving throw based on your opponents current level + CHA. Not that it'll always work, but it's way better than them simply falling over. Since I'm using some of the Ravenloft rules, my undead tend to be beefier than some other campaigns. That does suck that your ub3r villains didn't make an appearance because they got nailed with a mechanic, rather than the drama of a straight up fight.

Other thoughts include: Equipping them with a magic item which prohibits turning, raising their Turn Resistance, etc. Also, you can "Sink" more turn HD into a certain creature. If you've ever played Pokemon (don't laugh, I'm serious) there's an ability called "Pressure" which forces the opponent to spend more PP than usual on a move. In Magic: The Gathering it was... Mana Drain? Instead of 4 = 4, you could rule 4 = 5, 6 or even 8 - this MOB requires one extra HD to turn, this one two, this one Double and thusly cannot be destroyed.

I know I'm shutting the barn doors after the horses left, but these are all reasonable ways to bolster the undead without ruining the ability of Turn, and all you need to do is flavor text it in. Because of their demonic infusion, because of their ties to the NEP, because they drink Milk, whichever. I hope that's of some use to you the next time you come across the problem.

 

[Sadrik]

and happy Halloween to you,

I am not going to encounter the problem for a while. One of the players from the last game is going to DM. So, I thankfully wont have to deal with it.

I still have that bitter taste in my mouth though. When an undead encounter came up it was just a matter when the cleric's initiative came to either negate or neuter the entire encounter. And thats on the first round!

Something else that I thought of too was: Somebody said- "But there already is a save or die mechanic in the game." And then I said something about how they are generally spells of 5th+ level and that turning is reusable and effects a plurality as opposed to a single creature. Its worse than that. This is a save or die mechanic that is available at first level not 9th like for a 5th level spell. And it can be used 3+CHA per day. Where are the undead xp slot machines. Bring em on!

During the campaign, I lowered the EL's of the undead encounters because they were not a challenge. Like I mentioned an encounter with ~50 zombies I dropped that EL by around half (unfortunatly I dont remember the exact numbers). Also during that encounter at one point I said- "fine you destroy them all," and had him take off several of his turn attempts. Of course, he told the wizard- "save your fireballs."

Does a mechanic like that deserve to be in the game? No. Should the OP expand upon this theme and diversify it to a whole host of creatures and monsters. No-way imho.

 

[Thia Halmades]

Again, I side with you on this. I know there are variant rules in UA, which someone mentioned, so I have to go home tonight after work and look into it. If anything catches my attention, I'll post it tomorrow where to look (rather than run the lovely risk of infringement).