Clerics of a Force or a Philosophy?

[Alzrius]

The AD&D 2E PHB inherited 1E's rules about higher-level cleric spells only being granted by divine servants and, for the highest-level spells, gods of higher ranks (it's there, tucked away in the book). However, the Complete Priest's Handbook presented the idea of clerics could worship and receive spells from not just a deity, but also from a force (e.g. nature or the sun, etc.) or a philosophy.

My question is, did we ever see this happen in any particular D&D product? Ideally, is there any 2E product that actually had a force or a philosophy that listed the spheres and special powers that a specialty priest of it would receive?

I know that the divine spellcasters of the Dark Sun setting are the biggest example of this (insofar as forces are concerned, at least), and its arguable that the "native" religions of Ravenloft could be construed as this, but those notwithstanding, what else is there? I know that Ravenloft's Domains of Dread had a philosophy called The Divinity of Mankind, but that wasn't presented in a clerical context. Likewise, Lisa Smedman's The Dancing Hut of Baba Yaga had the personified forces of Day, Night, Twilight, and Death, but again those had no clerical context presented.

Was this concept ever put into play anywhere else in the game?

 

[Starfox]

This would seem to be entirely campaign specific in 2E. The default is that you worship a power. If a particular campaign allows other options, it is up to the Author/DM of that campaign to specify how it works.

 

[Alzrius]

This would seem to be entirely campaign specific in 2E. The default is that you worship a power. If a particular campaign allows other options, it is up to the Author/DM of that campaign to specify how it works.

Well, that's somewhat iffy - the Complete Priest's Handbook isn't a campaign-specific sourcebook, and I don't recall the PHB specifically saying that you had to worship a deity.

That said, my question was if there are any examples of the latter two options out there in the published material that we know of.

 

[ephemeron]

What about druids? 2e's take on them is very much "specialty priests of nature."

 

[Alzrius]

What about druids? 2e's take on them is very much "specialty priests of nature."

I don't recall the exact wording in the PHB, but the actual characters I saw in various sourcebooks tended to be druids of nature deities (again, Athas notwithstanding).

 

[delericho]

The AD&D 2E PHB inherited 1E's rules about higher-level cleric spells only being granted by divine servants and, for the highest-level spells, gods of higher ranks (it's there, tucked away in the book).

Actually, I don't think it is. The 2nd Ed "Legends & lore" contains that rule, and I think Forgotten Realms used it as well, but I don't believe it's in the PHB. I am ready to be corrected, however.

However, the Complete Priest's Handbook presented the idea of clerics could worship and receive spells from not just a deity, but also from a force (e.g. nature or the sun, etc.) or a philosophy.

My question is, did we ever see this happen in any particular D&D product?

I'm not aware of anything from the "Complete Priest's Handbook" appearing anywhere else. Possibly because it has the distinction of being one of very very few books to reduce the power level of characters using it.

 

[Alzrius]

Actually, I don't think it is. The 2nd Ed "Legends & lore" contains that rule, and I think Forgotten Realms used it as well, but I don't believe it's in the PHB. I am ready to be corrected, however.

If I can remember, I'll go look up the relevant passage when I get home from work. I remember stumbling across that caveat a few months ago in the PHB, and being surprised that it was there.

I'm not aware of anything from the "Complete Priest's Handbook" appearing anywhere else. Possibly because it has the distinction of being one of very very few books to reduce the power level of characters using it.

I remembering hearing this before, but I can't recall the reasoning behind the sentiment. Was it because some specialty priests had access to fewer spheres than standard clerics?

EDIT: Yeah, that seems to have been it. It's been years and years since I've read my copy, so I may need to go back and re-read it (and compare it to PHB-style clerics).

 

[M.L. Martin]

Divinity of Mankind is one of the philosophies in the CPH. The intent in Domains of Dread may have been to use those spheres, but it's tough to say. I know that DoD imposes an Int 14 requirement on clerics of that philosophy, but I don't have a CPH on hand to check if the requirement's in that book as well.

It should be noted that there's a blurb at the end of the Roleplaying chapter in the CPH about how "core clerics are overpowered in comparison to the priesthoods in this book; try stripping them down to All + 2 major and 2 minor spheres if you want to bring them into line." I have to wonder if Aaron Allston (RIP) was one of the first to see CoDzilla coming.

 

[delericho]

If I can remember, I'll go look up the relevant passage when I get home from work. I remember stumbling across that caveat a few months ago in the PHB, and being surprised that it was there.

Interesting. If you do happen to stumble on it, I would be interested in a reference, but don't bother looking on my account - I don't play 2nd Ed any more, so it's only of academic interest really.

In any case, I recommend ignoring that rule, as the net effect is to restrict the choice of deities for PC Clerics to Greater and Intermediate deities only - players always plan assuming they'll get to the top levels, and never want to miss out on the big powers!

(One other option, though, would be to have all 1st level Clerics serve demigods, and have them 'graduate' up to Lesser, Intermediate, and Greater gods as they go - presumably moving from the servant deity to the master as they rise in prominence. But I've never seen that done, where I have seen players dismiss the Lesser gods out of hand.)

I remembering hearing this before, but I can't recall the reasoning behind the sentiment. Was it because some specialty priests had access to fewer spheres than standard clerics?

It's a shame, because the Spheres from 2nd Ed were great, and the CPH was a particularly good book.

Of course, "PO: Skills & Powers" went completely the opposite way, giving the Cleric vast customisation options so that it was by far the most powerful class. That might be workable if the DM used it to build speciality priesthoods, but in players' hands it was problematic - or at least that was always my experience with it.

 

[delericho]

Divinity of Mankind is one of the philosophies in the CPH. The intent in Domains of Dread may have been to use those spheres, but it's tough to say. I know that DoD imposes an Int 14 requirement on clerics of that philosophy, but I don't have a CPH on hand to check if the requirement's in that book as well.

Nope. Wis 12, Str 12 in the CPH.

It should be noted that there's a blurb at the end of the Roleplaying chapter in the CPH about how "core clerics are overpowered in comparison to the priesthoods in this book; try stripping them down to All + 2 major and 2 minor spheres if you want to bring them into line." I have to wonder if Aaron Allston (RIP) was one of the first to see CoDzilla coming.

Doubtful. 2nd Ed Clerics tended to have very few 'blaster' spells, which were a significant omission in the class, and the spell stacking rules were generally less generous. Between those two, CoDzilla is much less of an issue.

That said, the Cleric has generally been one of the most powerful classes in the game, possibly by way of a 'bribe' to get someone to play the less flashy 'support' character.