Clogged Combats

[Aaron L]

What Shemmy said, ditch the minis and use a some graph paper to map out combat, it speeds things up a lot. You dont even have to ignore AOoOs and such, just be intuiotive with it, as the DM youll know exactly what the things look like by having the map, and the players can easily have a good idea of whats going on, and can just ask you any questions they might have.

Of course, if you have players who are prone to being adversarial with the DM, this wont work very well, I guess, but weve never done it any other way. Minis gave us heartburn.

 

[Child of Hypnos]

intresting - ive been using graph paper to map the battles, i figured that it might be part of the problem as the players were having difficulty keeping track of who was where in combat.
(i periodically get stuff like this:

'im gonna shot at him' *points and rolls*

'*sigh* Aquiev take 3 pts damage'

im not gonna argue with who they shoot at, the players get on fine, the PCs dont.

 

[noffham]

intresting - ive been using graph paper to map the battles, i figured that it might be part of the problem as the players were having difficulty keeping track of who was where in combat.
(i periodically get stuff like this:

'im gonna shot at him' *points and rolls*

'*sigh* Aquiev take 3 pts damage'

im not gonna argue with who they shoot at, the players get on fine, the PCs dont.

Well Heck, that's part of your problem. The characters should be able to identify each other as opposed to an Orc or Kobold; barring a dopleganger or changeling situation. If they know who's where, they can better plan and execute actions.

 

[Aaron L]

Uhhh.. yeah. If youre letting them shoot at thier companions without telling them what theyre doing... thats going to cause some problems.

 

[Janx]

Yeah, if the players keep shooting each other because they can't figure out who's who, that's a sign of a problem.

Luckily, that's a problem you should be able to solve.
1st: use a grid AND tokens small enough to fit on the grid. That means, if you're using graph paper, use small tokens. Personally, I recommend using a 1" grid, because then the tokens aren't too tiny, making it easier to see stuff.

2nd: use DISTINCTIVE tokens for bad guys versus PCs. The simplest is to use coins for the bad guys, and 1 die from each player (they know their own dice...). This makes it pretty obvious who the bad guys are (hint, they're the flat people).

If you're not keen on using a grid (and the grid IS helpful for quickly setting the scene and identifying friend or foe), then you at least owe your players updated data. When Joe says, "I shoot at him!" you should say, "That's Billy's PC, are you sure?" Whenever a player does something odd, you need to assume it is because you are not giving them enough information. It's OK if you miss something, but you've got to recognize when the players need more information AND give it to them.

Also, people keep asking how long players are taking. I suspect that your players are second guessing their actions (especially when every attack roll might be against a friend). Once you make sure they have good info (can tell friend from foe), you should be able to put pressure on them to decide quickly. Don't let them back-peddle with I could do this or that. Get it down to the following choices:
move to here
move to here and attack
shoot this guy ( and take a 5 foot step)
Attack the guys next to me ( and take a 5 foot step)
cast a spell ( and take a 5 foot step)
Do something else ( and take a 5 foot step)

If they keep waffling, tell them, "you delay your action while you decide what to do, Billy, you're up." A couple of times that happens, they'll quickly get the sense of urgency, and decide more quickly. The key is to build that sense of urgency. Do that, and you're combats will be faster AND better because the tension and mood will be enhanced.

Additionally, the "move to here" choice means you can summarize if any AoO's happen, rather than let them spend 5 minutes choosing among 5 different routes to get to square X. A smart fighter will always move to avoid being hit, so once they choose the destination, assume they took the most optimal path that their movement allows. That means 6 squares if they choose to attack, or 12 squares if they full move. AoO's should happen because the enemy has good positioning, NOT because the PC took the worst route.

Janx

 

[Child of Hypnos]

Sorry, force of habit, i was exaggerating with my example.
I DO tell them when theyre about to shoot/attack another PC (not that that always stops em)
my point was that using graph paper meant that the players might be the reason that my players were bad at keeping track of where they and everyone else was.
I'll user a bigger map and tokens or minis (i know a lot of people here dont like em - but ive a passion for sculpting, what can i say i have an artistic streak) next session, and see if that helps.
Thanx to evry1 by the way - i appreiciate the advice despite the fact that im not v. helpful.

 

[Aaron L]

Hey, if youve been using graph paper and it hasnt worked out for you, then you definately should try minis and see if its better for your group. minis might be just what you need.

and if you sculpt your own thats just too cool for words.

 

[Henry]

OK, CoHypnos, let's try this:

Name a specific fight (the 4 vs. the 2 bugbears will do nicely).

How many rounds went by?

Generally speaking, who died when and who did what? (Not looking for lots of details, because it may be hard to remember such, but just general flow of the event)

How long in seconds does it take each player to decide an action? 5 seconds? 15 seconds? 1 minute?

when someone casts spells, do they already have the spell open on the page of the book, or do they have to stop and look it up?

Are there lots of times when people take two turns because they had to redo their actions all over again due to a misconception?

How long do you estimate it takes you to come up with a monster plan of action after the first 3 to 4 rounds of combat?

Is the warforged tough because he's unhittable at AC 22, or because he's a powerhouse?

Solid details may help us pinpoint more problem spots.

 

[scourger]

Try Savage Worlds. My d20 combats were agonizingly slow, too. Even with initiative cards, quick calls for action, etc. The d20 system is complicated, which leads to slowness. There are many, many options, which leads to slowness. Tactical play is rewarded, which leads to slowness. Some players like all this, though.

My latest ideas to speed up d20 combat include using playing cards for initiative. This is borrowed from SW; deal out and count backwards from ace to deuce. Also, I've pondered using the HARP criticals tables for all damage with d20 damage rolls adding to the % roll on the HARP table. I would let the players track hp, but most of the foes would just be up or down.

 

[kenobi65]

The d20 system is complicated, which leads to slowness. There are many, many options, which leads to slowness. Tactical play is rewarded, which leads to slowness.

Though, it sounds like this isn't the primary problem for the original poster. It sounds like it just takes forever for the PCs to be able to dispatch the bad guys (due to low attack bonuses, from being low-level, and poor dice rolls).

IME, playing lots of 3E / 3.5 and Star Wars for the past 5 years, the single biggest frustration that my groups run into in combat is a bad run of dice, which can quickly make what *should* be a straightforward combat into a very annoying and drawn-out exercise in swearing at the dice.