Cloud of Knives kills minions?

[Lurker37]

As Mouseferatu pointed out, there's more than one component to Cloud of Daggers.

1) It makes an attack,
then
2) it creates what I'm surprised isn't defined as a zone effect. I'll refer to it as a hazard.

The initial attack can miss. The hazard however remains, since it is created regardless of whether the attack hits or misses. That hazard is independant of the initial attack roll. A creature takes the damage from that hazard regardless of whether the initial attack hits or misses, and regardless of whether it was the target of the initial attack.

So if the initial attack misses the minion, it is still standing in a hazard that will kill it at the start of its turn, unless someone slides it out of that square. If that happens, then someone else could still slide it, or another minion, into that square, to die at the start of its turn.

 

[Boarstorm]

This thread amuses me to no end.

 

[Andur]

Because I'm slightly masochist...

Minons don't take damage from powers which do damage on a Miss. Note Miss is an actual definer of a power, it is not simply something that happens on an attack roll. If the power has no Miss definer in it, then it does no damage on a Miss, so by extension they do have the Miss definer stating Miss: Creature is dealt 0 hp of damage. Effect has no bearing at all on whether a power hits or misses, it simply happens no matter what, no attack roll is even needed to make an Effect trigger.

Now let's get to a power which actually has all three definers; Icy Storm Hit: 2d8 + Int + balh blah, Miss: half damage and target is slowed. Effect: Burst creates a difficult zone that last until end of encounter.

So a minion hit with Ice Storm dies, no problem. A minion missed by Ice storm takes no damage, but is still slowed (because minions are only immune to damage in the Miss field), and all creatures must treat the area as difficult terrain, whether they were hit, missed, or not even in the target area.

Stinking Cloud is another great example, because it causes a bigger problem for the OP's logic, Burst 2, no Miss field, so if there were 3 minions, two were caught in the inital casting of the spell, one hit and one missed, hit one dies, missed one doesn't. The missed one then is moved by the BBEG so he doesn't start his turn in the zone, the caster then moves the zone to cover the missed minion, the minion who wasn't in the initial zone, and the BBEG, does the OP argue that neither minion will take any damage from teh effect, but the BBEG will?

Bottom line, the period, pointe finale is this:

If a power does not have a Miss: field defined, then a minion has no immunity to a missed attack roll.

Really: Effects happen regardless of a hit, miss, or anything inbetween, and if an Effect deals damage, minions die...

(On a slightly off tangent, what does the OP do for powers which have a secondary attack which is only triggered on a miss versus the same creature?)

 

[KarinsDad]

You people are reading the wrong thing.

A MISSED ATTACK NEVER KILLS A MINION.

Period, point finale. The Cloud of Knives is an attack.

Actually, the only one reading the wrong thing is you:

Damage from an attack or from a source that doesn’t require an attack roll (such as the paladin’s divine challenge or the fighter’s cleave) also destroys a minion. However, if a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals damage on a miss, it takes no damage.

Cloud of Daggers is not an attack that deals damage on a Miss. It's an attack with an additional Effect.

And by the way, it's Cloud of Daggers, not Cloud of Knives.

Reading really is fundamental.

 

[Victoly]

Premise A is faulty.

Cloud of Daggers is not an attack. Cloud of Daggers is an arcane power or "spell" which, when activated, has two consequences:

-An attack
-A persistent effect

The persistent effect has no attack roll and thus its damage would automatically kill a minion beginning its turn in the affected square.

 

[ryryguy]

I meant the fact that under SadisticFishing's rule:

If I miss with any attack roll I make on a power that creates a zone, all minions become immune to the zones damage.

After all, it's a power that missed, right?

Or maybe it's determined on the attack roll that I made last?

The heck with whether it's a power that creates a zone. Say it's a Fireball making an area attack. I roll a miss against one of the targets in the area. So now it's a "missed attack", so it can't hurt minions? Even if my attack rolls against them succeed? If I hit the first minion and kill it, then miss the second, it's now a "missed attack" and the first one comes back to life?

Or how about this... if I have some power that says, "Effect: push the target one square", or even "Miss: push the target one square", use it against a minion and miss the primary attack, I still push the minion one square. Say that pushes it off a cliff (and it misses its saving throw). The minion takes no damage from the fall because it's a "missed attack"?

Actually, this is sort of fun. Bizarre minion miss physics!

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, the only one reading the wrong thing is you:

Cloud of Daggers is not an attack that deals damage on a Miss. It's an attack with an additional Effect.

He's not relying on that paragraph for his argument; he's relying on the note on the hit points line in any given minion's stat block:

"HP 1; a missed attack never damages a minion."

So there are two rules:
1. If a minion is missed by an attack that normally deals damage on a miss, it takes no damage.
2. A missed attack never damages a minion.

1 does not apply to Cloud of Daggers, because Cloud of Daggers is not an attack that normally deals damage on a miss.

SadisticFishing isn't claiming that rule 1 applied to Cloud of Daggers. He's applying rule 2, which doesn't require an attack to normally deal damage on a miss in order to have a special clause for minions. According to rule 2, an attack which missed cannot damage a minion whether or not it would normally deal damage on a miss.

His error comes from considering an attack power to be a single attack, rather than, as is shown by Fireball or Spiritual Weapon, an entity which can incorporate one or more attacks, as well as one or more things which are not attacks.

Fireball might be an attack power, but it incorporates a discrete attack on each creature in the burst. Fireball is not an attack; rather, using the Fireball power allows the caster to make potentially multiple attacks.

There's a difference between:

Power 1 Attack * Encounter
Attack: Int vs Will
Hit: Slide target 2 squares, and target takes 1d6 damage.
Miss: Push target 1 square, and target takes 1d6 damage.

and

Power 2 Attack * Encounter
Attack: Int vs Will
Hit: Slide target 2 squares.
Miss: Push target 1 square.
Effect: Target takes 1d6 damage.

If Power 1 misses a minion, the minion takes no damage. If Power 2 misses a minion, the 1d6 damage from the effect still applies, because while the attack permitted by Power 2 missed, the effect of Power 2 is separate from the attack.

It's SadisticFishing's conflation of 'attack power' and 'attack' which is in error. An attack power is not, in itself, an attack; rather, an attack power often (but not always) allows the user to make one or more attacks.

Once this difference is understood, there is in fact no difference between Rule 1 and Rule 2 for minions, because under Rule 1, no attack which normally deals damage on a miss damages a minion on a miss, and also no attack which normally deals no damage on a miss damages a minion on a miss, by definition... and the combination of the two is the same as Rule 2.

-Hyp.

 

[ryryguy]

Well put, Hyp.

Power 1 Attack * Encounter
Attack: Int vs Will
Hit: Slide target 2 squares, and target takes 1d6 damage.
Miss: Push target 1 square, and target takes 1d6 damage.

<snip>

If Power 1 misses a minion, the minion takes no damage.

Agreed, but the minion is still pushed 1 square, right? If this pushes him off a cliff or into a damage dealing zone, does it still kill the minion? (I think yes, because the missed attack is not dealing the damage, the fall or the zone is dealing the damage.)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Agreed, but the minion is still pushed 1 square, right?

Absolutely.

If this pushes him off a cliff or into a damage dealing zone, does it still kill the minion? (I think yes, because the missed attack is not dealing the damage, the fall or the zone is dealing the damage.)

The damage dealing zone, sure. The fall - I'd need to check the minion rules again (I'm away from the book), but I'd assume so.

The attack that missed deals no damage, but the pit of lava is not the attack that missed.

-Hyp.

 

[Arbitrary]

You created a power and worded it extremely carefully to try and win the argument.

Look, this imaginary power does immediate damage as its effect, therefore if you miss with this power, and a power that misses cannot damage a minion, you miss with that power and the minion lives.

It's clever. I'll admit.

But that just isn't how powers are worded and it isn't an accident. Effects are ongoing, separate components of a power. They are not part of Hit or Miss. They have their own distinction.