D&D 5E Combat Encounter Difficulty

Hussar

Legend
Part of the issue is that 5e characters are EXTREMELY hard to flat out kill. You've got basically double your HP as a buffer against dying from damage. By 5th level, it's very, very unlikely anything you're facing can do your full HP+1 in a single critical hit (possible, but, unlikely) to take you from 1 HP to dead. And if you're not at 1 HP, the chance of anything outright killing you decreases with each HP.

It's quite possible for a PC to die to death saves, but, even then, extremely unlikely since it's far more likely that someone in the group will get a single HP or more of healing into the downed character before 3 rounds have elapsed.

Which tends to make things very wonky. A Deadly encounter is still extremely unlikely to result in a PC death unless you kill all the PC's. The PC's just have far too many resources to keep themselves alive.

Now, you can cut through this (heh, cut) by starting to attack downed PC's. But, now it looks like you're actively trying to whack PC's and many groups have an issue with that. It's a play style thing but, I can see players getting very... shirty if I start making sure to kill every downed PC. It really depends on how the group wants to play. At a guess, I'd say this is something that gets set up very, very early in the campaign.

But, I think the big take away from all of this is that any single encounter is very unlikely to ever be deadly (unless you're way, way outside the party's weight class). Deadliness requires a bit of set up - more encounters per day. Sure, the example had two encounters. Where I think things get truly interesting, is the next six encounters that group had to deal with before getting a long rest. What's been outlined is a good start to an adventuring day, not an entire adventuring day.
 

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Hussar

Legend
There's another issue here as well. CR is a predictive model and relies on assumptions in order to make predictions. This is an 8 PC group, effectively. Or at least 8 characters with PC levels. That's really going to skew results. Adding characters doesn't scale linearly. It's almost logarithmic. Going from 5 to 8 characters isn't a 60% increase in party effectiveness. It's probably closer to a 100% increase, possibly more.

Trying to apply the CR system to such a large group is going to be problematic. The group just has so many actions per round that it is going to be far more effective than simple level would predict.

Heck, even if all the NPC's did was burn actions to Help Action the PC's, that would greatly increase the party's effectiveness.

I'm not sure if it's really terribly useful to try to apply the CR model without taking the party size into account.
 

Fanaelialae

Legend
There's another issue here as well. CR is a predictive model and relies on assumptions in order to make predictions. This is an 8 PC group, effectively. Or at least 8 characters with PC levels. That's really going to skew results. Adding characters doesn't scale linearly. It's almost logarithmic. Going from 5 to 8 characters isn't a 60% increase in party effectiveness. It's probably closer to a 100% increase, possibly more.

Trying to apply the CR system to such a large group is going to be problematic. The group just has so many actions per round that it is going to be far more effective than simple level would predict.

Heck, even if all the NPC's did was burn actions to Help Action the PC's, that would greatly increase the party's effectiveness.

I'm not sure if it's really terribly useful to try to apply the CR model without taking the party size into account.

Encounter difficulty does take group size into account (on both sides of the screen). That's why there's typically an XP multiplier applied to calculate the actual difficulty of the encounter.

I've used it on parties ranging from 2 to 6 party members, and the results were acceptable. Admittedly, it begins to break down if the CRs or levels are spread over a wide range, but that's why I also use the PEL system that someone on these boards devised. (I have a spreadsheet that crunches all the numbers for me, so it's not a hassle to do both.)
 

Illithidbix

Explorer
I can only surmise the authors did this because 5e is more accessible. Adhering to the table prevents DM's still inexperienced with the system and/or NPC nuances from setting up unintended TPKs. The complaint that I'm seeing that there is no "chance of TPK" tier. I think that is a valid complaint for some. Personally I believe that if this was deliberate that they made the right choice.
This.

A few points that I feel are relevant whenever "THE ENCOUNTER BUILDER is RUSELESS ALEX BALDWIN!" debate turns up.

1)The actual DMG definitions of what “Weak”, “Medium”, “Hard” and esp. “Deadly” means might not be immediately what DMs assume.

DMG and DM Basic PDF said:
Easy. An easy encounter doesn’t tax the characters’ resources or put them in serious peril. They might lose a few hit points, but victory is pretty much guaranteed.

Medium. A medium encounter usually has one or two scary moments for the players, but the characters should emerge victorious with no casualties. One or more of them might need to use healing resources.

Hard. A hard encounter could go badly for the adventurers. Weaker characters might get taken out of the fight, and there’s a slim chance that one or more characters might die.

Deadly. A deadly encounter could be lethal for one or more player characters. Survival often requires good tactics and quick thinking, and the party risks defeat.

Deadly is "risk of death" rather than "risk of TPK".

2)The players are expected to win.
Sometimes easy to forget, but the Encounter Builder is designed to give defeatable challenges. Perhaps with more emphasis on "defeatable" than "challenge..."

3)The Encounter Builder system seems mostly for newbie DMs to not accidentally TPK their similarly newbie players.

If the players are experienced and knowledgeable about the rules and use this, then they'll punch above their weight. I presume most of the people who post on Enworld aren't their target audience in terms of experience.

There is no set Wealth/Treasure/Magic Item guide that is assumed by the game or the Encounter Builder.
Any amount of magic items put the party above the curve.
(I am still a little unsure if this remains the case with assuming the parties fighty types have access to magic weapons.
As a very rough guideline at 6th level Monks get Ki-Empowered Strikes and Moon Druids get Primal Strikes, and also looking at the monster builder in the DMG.... I'll start a separate thread about this)

It is also part of the “Standard Adventuring Day” that assumes more encounters than players often encounter
DMG and DM Basic PDF said:
Assuming typical adventuring conditions and average luck, most adventuring parties can handle about six to eight medium or hard encounters in a day.
… In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day.
In my experience DMing, I don't think I ever threw my players up against a full adventuring day. So naturally they could go Nova and throw lots more resources into the fights.
(Personally I can't see how a 1st-3rd level party could handle that many encounters myself, which I think is a far bigger problem.

The Encounter builder assumes 3-5 adventurers for the Encounter Multiplier.
From what I can tell the NPCs are effectively PCs for purposes of combat contribution, so it becomes an 8 player party.
DMG and DM Basic PDF said:
The preceding guidelines assume that you have a party consisting of three to five adventurers.
If the party contains fewer than three characters, apply the next highest multiplier on the Encounter Multipliers table. For example, apply a multiplier of 1.5 when the characters fight a single monster, and a multiplier of 5 for groups of fifteen or more monsters.
If the party contains six or more characters, use the next lowest multiplier on the table. Use a multiplier of 0.5 for a single monster.

So, my calculations for XP thresholds for Encounter difficulty for a party of 5 level five characters and 3 level four “cohort NPCs” =
Easy: 1625 [250x5 + 125x3]
Medium:3250 [500x5 + 250 x3]
Hard: 4875 [750x5 + 375x3]
Deadly: 7000 [1100 x 5 + 3x500]
AND it's an 8 person party so uses the next lowest multiplier on the table.

As BoldItalic notes:
That gives us the priestess (3900), the priest (450), two elites (2x1800) and four drow (4x100) for a total of 8350. I would discount the drow for the purposes of calculating the multiplier because they are well below the average CR for the encounter so there are effectively 4 monsters. That still gives the x2 reduced to x1.5 that you used, so I agree with you there. I'm looking at an adjusted figure of 8350x1.5 = 12525

If you don't count the Drow, AND factor in the fact the player is 8 person large then the x2 multiplier gets reduced twice to x1, so it becomes 8350.
I'm less sure if the Drow are technically irrelevant for the multiplier, but I can see a strong argument that they are at this point.

Were there any other Encounters in that “adventuring day?”
Did they have any encounters they needed to use their daily resources on?

Otherwise, yes the Encounter Builder is a very rough guideline that you can probably get by with guesstimating beyond a certain point.
I personally wonder if the “Easy” “Average” “Hard” “Deadly” grading tries to provide more granularity than it can be expected to handle.
I think 4E's fixed “Target Encounter XP” for a party at a set level was a more reliable system because it tried to do less.

I personally have had to compensate for the fact that I almost never have a standard adventuring day of six-eight encounters.
 

The second, main, encounter was vs 4 Drow, 2 Elites, 1 Priestess, 1 Priest, 1 Yochlol. I would characterize the fight as very hard, bordering on deadly. I would say "DMG Deadly" only there was no real risk of the party actually losing, so I agree to its description to a degree.

There's 14050 XP in that fight. This time, all eight PCs and NPCs took full part, so that's 1756 XP a pop. Sure enough, the threshold for Deadly is 1100 XP.

So far, so good - but wait.

We're supposed to increase the "XP multiplier" for the number of monsters - there were five significant monsters in the main encounter. Also we're supposed to decrease the multiplier for a large party - there were eight heroes in the encounter. So we up the multiplier to x2 for monsters, and lower it back again to x1.5 for heroes.

But now comes the real WHAAAA... moment.

These numbers are not per character, but for the whole party! :eek::eek::eek:

So, really, that initial encounter I put there as a challenge to take out silently (they failed miserably) is not double-easy at all. It's medium. WTF?

And the main encounter is supposed to be 200 + (13850 x 1.5) = 20975 XP, which is "off the chart deadly".

Actually it's not off the chart - it's just considered deadly for eight level 20 heroes, nearly double-deadly in fact...

You're not calculating that right.

8 X 20th level PCs have a 'deadly' XP budget of: 101,600 XP This encounter would just slide into the 'easy' category for them.

8 x 5th level PCs have a 'deadly' budget of 8,800 XP

20,000 XP is not off the chart deadly at all. It's definately deadly though. Double deadly in fact.

Im super weirded out by the encounter however.

The Yochol makes two attacks per round with 10' reach (at +6) dealing 7d6+2 damage a hit. It's resistant to non magic weapons (and a ton of other stuff) effectively giving it 260 hit points. It has advantage on saving throws vs spells. It casts dominate person (DC14) 1/day.

How on earth was it NOT killing 1 PC per turn?

Even if it gets surrounded (it can spider climb) it can cast Web (restraining the party) at will - which it is immune to, and then turn into gas form (where it is invulnerable to non magic attacks) and simply.. float away.

The two drow elite warriors have ACs of 21 with parry (assuming you didnt give them drow armor), 70 HP each, two attacks per round doing 4d6+4 damage. Thats after the volley of knockout dart crossbow bots (in darkness so probably at advantage) against the PCs.

The priestess is spamming a 20' radius (40' diameter) sphere dealing 4d10 damage per round (con save for half) while she melees for 2 attacks per round at +5 dealing 6d6 damage per hit. If they drop her concentration she can simply put it up again.

Just those 4 critters alone should have wiped the floor with 8 x 5th level PC's - they should have been dropping like flies!

We're talking about (just the 2 elites, the yochol and priestess) throwing down 8 attacks per round dealing an average of 6d6 damage per hit each, plus an AoE spell dealing 4d10 to a bunch of people.

Assuming just half those attacks hit, thats 2 PCs going down per round (before you factor in the insect swarm).

The preistess has mass cure wounds too.
 

There's another issue here as well. CR is a predictive model and relies on assumptions in order to make predictions. This is an 8 PC group, effectively. Or at least 8 characters with PC levels. That's really going to skew results. Adding characters doesn't scale linearly. It's almost logarithmic. Going from 5 to 8 characters isn't a 60% increase in party effectiveness. It's probably closer to a 100% increase, possibly more.

Trying to apply the CR system to such a large group is going to be problematic. The group just has so many actions per round that it is going to be far more effective than simple level would predict.

Heck, even if all the NPC's did was burn actions to Help Action the PC's, that would greatly increase the party's effectiveness.

I'm not sure if it's really terribly useful to try to apply the CR model without taking the party size into account.

CR is irrelevant when it comes to the number of PCs in the group. Its simply an indicator of the average PC level it would provide a challenge for.

Encounter difficulty is the number used when it comes to taking on monsters.

A single CR 7 monster is an 'easy' challenge for a party of 5 x 7th level PCs. Its worth 1900 xp. Medium difficulty doesnt start until 3750 xp. The party are expected to steamroll it comprehensively expending little to no resources in the process.

A more appropriate solo challenge for 5 x 7th level PCs would be a single CR 9 critter (worth 5000 xp and being a 'medium' challenge). Preferably a legendary mosnter as its a solo. Something like a Young Blue Dragon.

By comparison 2 x CR 5 monsters are a also a 'medium' challenge for the same party (at the upper end at 5400 XP. 2 x CR 5 Earth elementals would be a fun encounter.
 


Hussar

Legend
My problem with that is that if you climb up to CR 9 creatures, they're pretty much instantly killing 5th level pc's. The pc's should be somewhere around 30-40 hp each. A CR 9 creature can easily do that much damage in a round.
 

Herobizkit

Adventurer
Players who don't have casters on their party (ie they use Football / Leeroy Jenkins tactics) tend to take advantage of DM's who don't use spell-casters to their full efficiency.

I speak from my own experience. In my fledgling days as DM, I hated statting out wizards and their various spells and effects, so I just didn't use them that often. It can be a 'bad' habit, because at higher levels, throwing sword damage against damage can get boring and higher levels is where you see the magic with the crazy effects come into play.

Were I DM'ing the OP's group, I would make examples of the NPC's and slaughter them horribly, then perhaps reanimate them and send them back at the party in a different encounter. These are DROW, man - they should be scary and underhanded and relentless.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
Im super weirded out by the encounter however.

The Yochol makes two attacks per round with 10' reach (at +6) dealing 7d6+2 damage a hit. It's resistant to non magic weapons (and a ton of other stuff) effectively giving it 260 hit points. It has advantage on saving throws vs spells. It casts dominate person (DC14) 1/day.

How on earth was it NOT killing 1 PC per turn?

Even if it gets surrounded (it can spider climb) it can cast Web (restraining the party) at will - which it is immune to, and then turn into gas form (where it is invulnerable to non magic attacks) and simply.. float away.

The two drow elite warriors have ACs of 21 with parry (assuming you didnt give them drow armor), 70 HP each, two attacks per round doing 4d6+4 damage. Thats after the volley of knockout dart crossbow bots (in darkness so probably at advantage) against the PCs.

The priestess is spamming a 20' radius (40' diameter) sphere dealing 4d10 damage per round (con save for half) while she melees for 2 attacks per round at +5 dealing 6d6 damage per hit. If they drop her concentration she can simply put it up again.

Just those 4 critters alone should have wiped the floor with 8 x 5th level PC's - they should have been dropping like flies!

We're talking about (just the 2 elites, the yochol and priestess) throwing down 8 attacks per round dealing an average of 6d6 damage per hit each, plus an AoE spell dealing 4d10 to a bunch of people.

Assuming just half those attacks hit, thats 2 PCs going down per round (before you factor in the insect swarm).

The preistess has mass cure wounds too.
Yeah, it sure looks impressive.

But you must not have my players - much like the D&D designers, I suspect!

First off: the summoning kerfuffle. The adventure specifies the Priestess tries to summon the demon only when "bloodied" (I'm using this very convenient 4E term for "at half hp"). And then, as has been correctly pointed out, any summons poofs out when the conjuror is downed.

Rather than doing this by the book for a very underwhelming scenario, I had Ilvara use the one round the Drow got when the party fireballed the initial guard post to call the Yochlol. Then I had the demon just sit there and be amused at all the hurting the party inflicted on the Drow. The she-demon would only enter combat when attacked or when Ilvara got bloodied and (as a free action) cried out for help. The Yochlol would then fight to the death. It would not disappear when the Priestess died, which I believe in previous-edition parlance would be called "calling" rather than "summoning" the demon. Anyway, the important bit is that I consider that to firmly justify including the Yochlol's full CR 10 to the encounter difficulty.

The fight went down as follows:

Ilvara casts Insect Plague to plug the passageway into the cave the Drow is using as camp. All characters eventually take damage from this, but notably only once (much like Stinking Cloud, the 5E version of this spell is in my opinion not worth its level for this reason).

The party fireballs the camp (unknowingly frying the gnome they're trying to rescue ;) ) clearing out the non-elite drow.

Then general melee ensues. The monk and the PC fighter engages Ilvara. The two Drow elites hope to attack the "soft underbelly" of the party, and Shoor does manage to down the NPC fighter in the party. To me it's obvious he would not waste a precious round on killing off a fallen foe when he's still in melee with active enemies, but each to his own. The elite ability to go from AC 18 to 21 on one attack per round did cause quite the consternation, but the party had quite a few tricks of their own. Once they set up attacking him with advantage, they reliably get in quite a few attacks each round. The battlemaster ability that says "attack me or attack at disadvantage" is very effective in neutralizing a specific foe (since it's used by an archer more than 30 feet away).

Jorlan is quickly bloodied when all the archers focus-fire on him when he seriously threatens the party Warlock, and at this stage he calmly states "I'm going to go away now, anyone standing in my way will be killed". They let him run off (but caught and killed him later). I should add that I did not apply the handicaps of the adventure - I did describe him as burned and in pain, but did not want him to be effectively useless (by applying disadvantage to his attacks). I did express his disloyalty by caring only for himself (which would have worked against any other party than one with a super-spy familiar and a 50 ft Speed monk as backup).

Back to the fight: Ilvara held her own and bloodied one of her attackers, but then quickly went down. The monk's stunlock is a very effective win button. Besides; she isn't equipped with many scary spells once she's cast Insect Plague. I don't think it changes the CR calculation, but I did not give her the Tentacle Staff.

The Yochlol did try to keep away from being surounded. I had prepared the cave to allow it to reach them from the ceiling. I did allow them to cast Shatter at her square, though. Ruling that she could lose her grip when chunks of ceiling fell off, she failed an improvised Dex save and fell down in their midst. And that was that.

As to your specific concerns:

The monk used bonus dodge to save his life (making the Yochlol miss half the time). It still reduced him to single digit hit points and forced him out of the fight. But one round of stun and one round of lying prone (from falling to the floor) means an awful lot of attacks with disadvantage. Obviously the PCs without magical attack means spent their attacks somewhere else. I don't think I've handed out a lot more magical weaponry than the adventure allows. They have the gelatinous cube mace, one dagger and one short sword, I believe. All magical drowcraft items. I've given them six +1 bolts, but that could be on me (not sure). Eldritch Blast does full damage (with no save).

In the end, a lot of hit points won't save you if you're all alone. Remember, when the Yochlol "activated", Ilvara had already gone from bloodied to dead before the demon could act. (The party reliably dishes out a hundred damage per round -- doesn't yours?)

But back to your issues: I remember trying to Dominate the kill machine of the party. Had she not rolled well, that could have meant a lot more pain for the party. But since the spell failed, that was one whole round wasted on not dishing out those sweet sweet 14d6 damage... (I suspect a Yochlol should never waste any time on that spell unless it can cast it at range, well before its foes can enter melee. Unless it fights against level-appropriate opposition, of course! Dominating a level 12 hero, say, is a much more worthwhile endeavour than the (by that time small) prospect of dishing out a (by that time piddling) 14d6 damage in tier iii play).

I will grant you that if the Yochlol would have wanted to escape, it would have had an excellent chance of doing so. But a Yochlol there only as a "combat summon" doesn't think of retreat if you ask me. After all, it isn't risking real death.

The party cast Daylight. Not only does this mean any Darkness evaporates instantly, it means Drow Elites attack at disadvantage. (I'm not actually sure how much of "real daylight" this spell confers, but I didn't want to rule their high-level slot worthless, so...)

Not sure what you mean by "spamming a 4d10 sphere". Are you talking about an aura spell?

Because if you're talking about Insect Plague, she does not cast it centred on herself. And she can't cast it and attack in the same round. And as soon as she's in melee, anything with "concentration" is worthless, since she'll lose the spells faster than she can cast them. That strategy would turn her into a sitting duck. Even if she could cast Insect Plague every round, and even if I thought it be fun for her to optimize her behaviour on this spell, she would have had to suffer opportunity attacks to move out of her circle of attackers, drop Insect plague, be attacked and lose Concentration, move out again... I grant you she could concievably deal more Insecty damage that way, but she would sure go down faster with all those OAs.

Finally, you don't even mention Asha, and you'd be right to do so. The only action available to the NPC Priest creature that would make any difference at all (as far as I can see) is healing a more capable ally, thus forcing the heroes to waste half a round of attacks on killing her. In the end, I interpreted the adventure as to mean she didn't want to heal Ilvara, so she kind of tried to sneak away as soon as she saw her side was losing. I can't remember what did her in, when she failed to climb out of the cave's back entrance.

In the end, the players were suitably impressed. They called it a "end level fight". :)

As for me, I conclude what the DMG calls "double deadly" I call "very hard, bordering on deadly"
 

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