D&D 5E Combining the sorcerer and wizard spell lists?

[Jester David]

Basic is Basic, Standard is Standard, and in Standard the sorcerer is not considered optional. And more so, the PotA spells will eventually phase out.

Arguably, the free PotA player's guide is closer to Basic than Standard, being much more readily available for all.

But that is an exclusionary vision, and it won't always work. And this is a thread about the effects of just using all wizard spells for the sorcerer -ask the DM won't work if the DM is the one asking.

The OP asked "why?" as much as "what harm?". I answered the former, and in my second post presented why it wasn't entirely arbitrary. (I didn't really address the latter, true. But, then again, neither did you, opting instead to debate.)
(I really should edit a response to the second question in.)

And how do you know how common or uncommon it is? And how the designers would know it? the sorcerer wasn't on the open playtest and except for the last survey they have asked exactly zero feedback on the sorcerer.

They did an entire survey just on what spells were most popular. And the go-to signature spells of D&D are pretty well known.

But traps imply optimization, not everybody optimizes, it is possible to have fun with suboptimal things, and on top optimization can have different goals. What is a trap for a player, is fun for another one. And this "most sorcerers" cannot be proved (or disproved)

Traps also imply non-fun. Not everyone optimizes, but making an unintentional inoptimal character is not fun. Picking a poor option or making a mistake is not fun. Which is easier when you're a new player, but is also possible when you think an option will be more useful than it is.
Anyone who has played spellcasters long enough knows the joy of having the completely wrong spells for a situation. It's bad enough when you're the wizard and can just re-memorize the next day, but is more annoying when you need to wait until you gain a level to pick new spells.

Ok, show me how to make a 100% utility caster that is useful and not make your party regret they didn't bring a wizard, a charming high level illusionist, an effective gish, an eldritch artisan, a friend to all living things sorcerer, a sorcerous thief, a caster killer sorcerer and a hunter sorcerer. All effective at all levels. And that is without entering into longer term effects or reality shaping.

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking for here...

Or you could relearn a lower level spell, having two good spells for the concept, but lacking the third only makes you inferior to the wizard who can casually dabble in your niche and outdo you. This is the thing, sorcerers are niche grabbing casters, but lacking access to niche-filling spells reduces the number of niches you can occupy effectively.

Relearning is valuable (and is arguably more valuable by dropping lower level spells to learn higher level ones), but that's more of an advanced feature. And it still has to be balanced with choice. Too many choices cause problems when levelling. The cleric is the class with choices each day, wizard is the class with lots of choices each level, the fighter is the class with almost none, and the sorcerer is now in the middle. It's the class for people who want to play a spellcaster but don't want the full wizard experience.

That's the catch of the sorcerer. They can fill a single niche at a time, and have just enough tools for each niche. And a skilled player can retrain and swap some extra utility in.

Or you can relearn a lower level spell and have two spells to chose in that slot, really, being able to relearn spells each level is a boon, at certain point lower level slots are more useful for metamagic than for spells, and if a low level spell is very good, you may want to cast it in a higher level slot anyway. And isn't mage armor one of these spells you only cast once a day?

There's already a lot of lame questionable spells on the sorcerer's spell list that are unlikely to be learned, even as retrained options. You're really suggesting we need more for symmetry?
I'm sure somewhere there's a sorcerer whose whole character concept hinges on having darkvision and knock as their 2nd-level spells, but I can't think of many.

 

[Riley37]

Is it possible or plausible, that the Sorceror spell list was composed as follows:

"Here's some Wizard spells which make sense as innate, non-formulaic magic, and also, they won't become horribly broken if cast with a metamagic."

Determining whether a spell can become horribly broken when cast with metamagic, requires a bit of effort. Perhaps the Sorceror spell list is conservative. Perhaps the Sorceror class is just not munchkin-optimized enough for your purposes. Perhaps you should multiclass; start as Sor for the CON save and the unarmored AC 13, level up once or twice for metamagic, then take Wizard levels for the huge spell list.

 

[Quickleaf]

I've never really grasped the sorcerer class since its inception. What unique concept justifies a sorcerer that isn't already embodied in a wizard?

My impression of 5e's answers to that question thus far lead me to believe the sorcerer received less iterations of design than the other classes. To wit, here are the answers 5e seems to give to the question:

Sorcerers get the enhance ability spell & some other randomly chosen elemental themed spells.

Sorcerers get wild magic & dragon magic.

Sorcerers can alter their spells on the fly.

IIRC Sorcerers we also meant to occupy a "mid point" in design between the spell-limited warlock and spell-abundant wizard.

I would argue that the entire sorcerer class could desperately use a solid re-design to make it something really unique that stands on its own two feet. Something like a domain-based mage, merged with some of its existing features, and adding some kind of over-channel/exhaustion rules for pushing your limits might be a good direction to take its re-design.

 

[Staffan]

I've never really grasped the sorcerer class since its inception. What unique concept justifies a sorcerer that isn't already embodied in a wizard?

Arcane spellcaster with limited innate magic as opposed to magic learned through hard study.

I had some vague plans for a setting once where wizardry was the main advantage PC races had over "savage" humanoids. Sorcery was a random "gift", that was pretty rare. Wizardry however was all learned - anyone smart enough to understand it could learn it. So human armies could field dozens of wizards for every orc sorcerer out there.

 

[Quickleaf]

Arcane spellcaster with limited innate magic as opposed to magic learned through hard study.

Well, you could play a wizard, choose a thematic limited set of spells, and just play up the social difference between your PC and other wizards. That definition of a "sorcerer" doesn't go deep enough to differentiating it from a wizard, and probably is why people are complaining about the sorcerer's nonsensical spell list.

In the 5e PHB, they say "No one chooses sorcery; the power chooses the sorcerer" and "Magic is a part of every sorcerer, suffusing body, mind, and spirit with a latent power that waits to be tapped."

The things that leap out as class design precepts to me are that...

• Magic / "The Power" (of the sort sorcerers wield) has a will of its own, not sentience necessarily, but some kind of tie into destiny. Like the Force. This suggests all sorcerers should have a mechanic akin to Wild Magic Surges, something that can express itself unexpectedly as a manifestation of "The Power."
• Magic "suffuses" a sorcerer, meaning they are walking magic sponges or at least they radiate magic if someone casts a detect magic on them. This suggests that magic resistance, detecting magic, discharging pure magic, and/or dispelling or absorbing magic should be features of any sorcerer. And possibly indicates that the sorcerer should appear "magical" when casting spells.
• A sorcerer's magic is a "latent power, waiting to be tapped." That suggests some sort of exertion/exhaustion/over-channel ability should be available to any sorcerer. It also suggests that sorcerers don't need to prepare spells (which is already the case). And maybe it suggests some sort of buildup of energies if a sorcerer doesn't cast spells?

From this I get the idea that a sorcerer isn't totally in control of his or her magic, which is just waiting to burst out. That should have a mechanical representation. I also would assume that a sorcerer should relate differently to magic than other casters, whether that's confounding detect magic cast upon them, detecting magic at-will, being immune (or especially vulnerable) to dispel magic, or something more interesting. Since magic seems to be linked to the sorcerer's very essence, I also get the impresssion a sorcerer should be able to push their limits of Spellcasting at the expense of their well-being.

 

[Zardnaar]

Twinned foresight seems a bad idea.

 

[MoonSong]

Arguably, the free PotA player's guide is closer to Basic than Standard, being much more readily available for all.

But it is kind of a huge tangent. Anyway, for now is AL legal and in the spotlight. Then what? it'll be replaced by the next new thing and the file buried in the WotC site.

The OP asked "why?" as much as "what harm?". I answered the former, and in my second post presented why it wasn't entirely arbitrary. (I didn't really address the latter, true. But, then again, neither did you, opting instead to debate.)
(I really should edit a response to the second question in.)

See below, my next answer to Riley.

They did an entire survey just on what spells were most popular. And the go-to signature spells of D&D are pretty well known.

I guess that was a general survey, and not in the context of the sorcerer. But if I'm wrong i'de be glad if you gave me the link to it.

Traps also imply non-fun. Not everyone optimizes, but making an unintentional inoptimal character is not fun. Picking a poor option or making a mistake is not fun. Which is easier when you're a new player, but is also possible when you think an option will be more useful than it is.
Anyone who has played spellcasters long enough knows the joy of having the completely wrong spells for a situation. It's bad enough when you're the wizard and can just re-memorize the next day, but is more annoying when you need to wait until you gain a level to pick new spells.

When you know you won't have the answer to everything, you stop caring about having always the right spell and instead adapt like the rest of the mortals do. That is one way in which the sorcerer is more peasant than a wizard.

I'm not entirely sure what you're asking for here...

It is a list of concepts I'm not sure I can pull off with a sorcerer anymore (anymore) soyou can show me the spells in teh sorcerer list that allows them to be done and not be gimped.

• A 100% utility caster that is useful and not make your party regret they didn't bring a wizard
• A charming illusionist who makes people doubt their sense of reality
• An effective gish
• An eldritch artisan
• A sorcerer friend to all animals whose magic show it
• A sorcerous thief
• A caster killer sorcerer
• A hunter sorcerer.

All effective at all levels. Not asking for long term effects in the world or reality bending, I know these aren't possible anymore.

Relearning is valuable (and is arguably more valuable by dropping lower level spells to learn higher level ones), but that's more of an advanced feature. And it still has to be balanced with choice. Too many choices cause problems when levelling. The cleric is the class with choices each day, wizard is the class with lots of choices each level, the fighter is the class with almost none, and the sorcerer is now in the middle. It's the class for people who want to play a spellcaster but don't want the full wizard experience.

But the wizard isn't the caster experience, it is a caster experience, but not the end all of casters.

That's the catch of the sorcerer. They can fill a single niche at a time, and have just enough tools for each niche. And a skilled player can retrain and swap some extra utility in.

I would say the sorcerer is meant to fill only a niche, but do it well, and I'm not sure it has the tools for many niches other than blaster.

There's already a lot of lame questionable spells on the sorcerer's spell list that are unlikely to be learned, even as retrained options. You're really suggesting we need more for symmetry?
I'm sure somewhere there's a sorcerer whose whole character concept hinges on having darkvision and knock as their 2nd-level spells, but I can't think of many.

No we need more so these unfilled niches can be filled. And they can be filled, by the niche dabbling wizard.

Is it possible or plausible, that the Sorceror spell list was composed as follows:

"Here's some Wizard spells which make sense as innate, non-formulaic magic, and also, they won't become horribly broken if cast with a metamagic."

Determining whether a spell can become horribly broken when cast with metamagic, requires a bit of effort. Perhaps the Sorceror spell list is conservative. Perhaps the Sorceror class is just not munchkin-optimized enough for your purposes. Perhaps you should multiclass; start as Sor for the CON save and the unarmored AC 13, level up once or twice for metamagic, then take Wizard levels for the huge spell list.

I guess this argument sounds convincing, but again the DMG on spell lists warns about not touching the warlock spell list because you could break it. No such warning for the sorcerer. (And please, please pretty please stop the name calling and the dismissiveness, what did I do to you?)

I've never really grasped the sorcerer class since its inception. What unique concept justifies a sorcerer that isn't already embodied in a wizard?

The sorcerer is a different approach to magic, magic can be mundane, easy and fun, and very easy to be irresponsible with. Or it can be something to fear, not voluntary and a curse. Neither is possible with the wizard, but the sorcerer makes magic something that could happen anywhere to anyone, something you can enjoy or something you want to get rid of. The magic is hard of the wizard isn't conductive to either. (A curse? and this curse makes you memmoruze spells every morning and prevents you from burning the spell book?)

But also there are characters in pop culture that make sense as sorcerers but no wizards:

• Sabrina, more so in the comics and the Disney series.
• Elsa
• Samantha
• Jenny (From I dream of Jenny)
• The xmen in general
• And the wizard doesn't really fit legend Merlin or Gandalf either.

Twinned foresight seems a bad idea.

Twin spell at all seems like a bad idea. But I'm not sure it would be legal, self spells cannot target another creature.

 

[Jester David]

It is a list of concepts I'm not sure I can pull off with a sorcerer anymore (anymore) soyou can show me the spells in teh sorcerer list that allows them to be done and not be gimped.

• A 100% utility caster that is useful and not make your party regret they didn't bring a wizard
• A charming illusionist who makes people doubt their sense of reality
• An effective gish
• An eldritch artisan
• A sorcerer friend to all animals whose magic show it
• A sorcerous thief
• A caster killer sorcerer
• A hunter sorcerer.

And all of those were viable from day one in 3e (ir after the PHB2 in 4e) solely through spells?

 

[MoonSong]

And all of those were viable from day one in 3e (ir after the PHB2 in 4e) solely through spells?

Given the right level, sure, of course you have to build the rest of the pc around the spells, but they are possible with core only 3.x (the artisan isn't too supported though). TBH the thief and the gish get way better with splat. I've never defended 4e for it, the blaster only thingie started there.

 

[Riley37]

Twin spell at all seems like a bad idea. But I'm not sure it would be legal, self spells cannot target another creature.

Foresight affects a "willing creature" at Touch range; or, with Twin, a pair of willing creatures. Why are you bringing up the prohibition on twinning Self spells?

If someone makes it to 17th level Sorceror, and learns Foresight, and burns *nine sorcery points* twinning Foresight, then hurray! You AND your friend are affected, much as if you had one more spell slot. Which is to say, you've found a close equivalent to creating a 9th-level spell slot out of 9 sorcery points.

17th-level Sorcerors can also cast Heightened Empowered Meteor Swarm. I'm not sure how metamagics apply to Wish. I don't think Twinned Spell is the main game-breaker at 17th level. In the meantime, I'm more interested in levels 1 to 11.

I'm interested in MoonSong's question about sorcerors pursuing paths other than blaster. I see the number of spells known as a limiting factor, as well as the spell list, especially for the "utility caster". If your magical swiss army knife can only have two items, that limits "utility". Neither of those items can be Identify... yeah, you weren't gonna take Identify as *half your spell list*, were you? The lack of ritual casting of Detect Magic is a big hit, and so is the lack of a Familiar.

A sorceror can start at 1st level with Friends, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Charm Person and Disguise Self, plus a cantrip for combat; high Charisma synergizes just fine with Friends. At 3rd level, add Suggestion and swap out your learned-at-level-2 spell for Detect Mind; combine with Subtle for devious mind-magic shenanigans, or Heightened for brute-force domination. At 4th, upgrade Disguise Self to Alter Self. At 5th, learn Major Image.

I've written up a first-level Sorceror with Disguise Self and Fog Cloud; Disguise for when the party is doing mission-intro footwork, plus Fog Cloud as an escape option if the party ever finds a bigger fight than it can hande. Combo: a draconic sorceror walks into a Fog Cloud, and someone else (apparently) walks out. But I haven't yet taken this character sheet to a table with an open seat.

Friendship with animals, alas, is only for Druids in 5E, and no longer a Sorceror option. And yeah, that might be a weakness of the 5E Sor spell list. If you want "I am descended from dragons, so animals do my bidding, for they recognize me as the apex predator!" then I hope your DM will work with you.

I'd be open to a house-ruled Sorceror version of Ritual Casting... which isn't a "ritual" as such, but a meditation in which the sorceror slowly, subtly gathers and directs magical energy, sufficient for no-slot-cost spellcasting. I might throw in some limits, though, such as requiring a WIS check, with Advantage under serene conditions and Disadvantage under high-distraction conditions.