Comfort withcross gender characters based on your gender

[Sunseeker]

Because, frankly, if at the table, you cannot or will not convey the pertinent facts of your character to the rest of the table in any way, then, why bother?

Ugh. Conveying the pertinent facts of my character and conveying nothing about my character or nothing you find personally satisfying are not the same thing. A character can be interesting, creative and female, without also displaying a Hussar-satisfying level of femininity. Which so far means "Something something clothing."

How many times do I need to repeat that?

 

[MechaPilot]

So again we come back to my original contention: what exactly makes a character "female"?

If you can't answer, you have no ground to claim that my portrayal should include it.

There is no blanket answer because it's so conditional on cultural norms, both those in real life and those that come from the game. In my setting I have one culture where a feminine trait is left-handedness, and another where baldness is feminine and the women in that culture shave their heads.

For a real life example, look at Japan, and how the language itself has feminine and masculine forms of speech. Even in cultures where the language doesn't have separate constructions for male and female speech, female speech has usually had more deferential patterns of word choices. Also look at real life greetings, where a handshake is typically seen as manly while a hug between same-sex people who aren't family members is often seen as feminine, homosexual, or at least unmanly.

None of these things are hard and fast rules that apply across the board, because every setting has different cultures, because every individual is different, and because people (especially fantasy heroes) tend to break the mold. So there's no set of standards your character has to measure up to to be "black enough" or "feminine enough" or "masculine enough" for you to be allowed to play it, but there are traits that can be worked into one's character that are tells as to a character's gender, social standing, etc.

 

[Hussar]

[MENTION=82779]MechaPilot[/MENTION] gets it. I don't really care HOW you portray your character, just that your character is actually being portrayed. Particularly since things like race and gender are generally speaking major elements of what makes a character a character.

 

[Sunseeker]

There is no blanket answer because it's so conditional on cultural norms, both those in real life and those that come from the game. In my setting I have one culture where a feminine trait is left-handedness, and another where baldness is feminine and the women in that culture shave their heads.

For a real life example, look at Japan, and how the language itself has feminine and masculine forms of speech. Even in cultures where the language doesn't have separate constructions for male and female speech, female speech has usually had more deferential patterns of word choices. Also look at real life greetings, where a handshake is typically seen as manly while a hug between same-sex people who aren't family members is often seen as feminine, homosexual, or at least unmanly.

None of these things are hard and fast rules that apply across the board, because every setting has different cultures, because every individual is different, and because people (especially fantasy heroes) tend to break the mold. So there's no set of standards your character has to measure up to to be "black enough" or "feminine enough" or "masculine enough" for you to be allowed to play it, but there are traits that can be worked into one's character that are tells as to a character's gender, social standing, etc.

Ah, an answer with both context and specificity.

 

[Umbran]

Particularly since things like race and gender are generally speaking major elements of what makes a character a character.

In D&D, race (actually meaning species) has mechanical impact, and so is a major element of what makes a character a character. Gender has no mechanical impact in the game as written.

Whether race (in our current cultural sense) or gender matter depends very strongly on whether or not the society in the game, as portrayed by the GM, cares. And in some games, it has been rendered largely irrelevant - Shadowrun and Deadlands, for example, both make explicit points in their setting materials that what we used to think of as race and gender bias have, for in-game reasons, largely gone away. You are free to play any sort of character, and the game world basically doesn't care.

I think he has a point. Back several exchanges you say, " If you are playing as another gender and nothing in your portrayal actually indicates that, then why are you doing it?"

First: have the words "internal role-play" ever come up around you?

Second: There is a difference between, "nothing in your portrayal indicates that," and "nothing in your portrayal indicates that to me". He can, in fact, be doing his level best to portray a female character, but if he doesn't push *your* preconception-buttons, you won't get that, now will you? It should not be too much to ask for what those preconception buttons are, if you are going to make a big deal out of wanting them pushed. You talk about him portraying "pertinent facts" without saying what you think is pertinent? Is that fair?

Of course, you missed the dirt simple answer to this. We commonly switch between first and third person in referring to our characters. When using third person, use a feminine pronoun. "My character wants information. She walks up to the guard..." Boom. Job of making sure everyone knows the gender is done.

 

[Hussar]

In D&D, race (actually meaning species) has mechanical impact, and so is a major element of what makes a character a character. Gender has no mechanical impact in the game as written.

Whether race (in our current cultural sense) or gender matter depends very strongly on whether or not the society in the game, as portrayed by the GM, cares. And in some games, it has been rendered largely irrelevant - Shadowrun and Deadlands, for example, both make explicit points in their setting materials that what we used to think of as race and gender bias have, for in-game reasons, largely gone away. You are free to play any sort of character, and the game world basically doesn't care.

I think he has a point. Back several exchanges you say, " If you are playing as another gender and nothing in your portrayal actually indicates that, then why are you doing it?"

First: have the words "internal role-play" ever come up around you?

Yup. Never really had much truck with it to be honest. If everything about your character only ever happens in your head, then, well, who cares? It's irrelevant to the table and everyone else participating.

Second: There is a difference between, "nothing in your portrayal indicates that," and "nothing in your portrayal indicates that to me". He can, in fact, be doing his level best to portray a female character, but if he doesn't push *your* preconception-buttons, you won't get that, now will you? It should not be too much to ask for what those preconception buttons are, if you are going to make a big deal out of wanting them pushed. You talk about him portraying "pertinent facts" without saying what you think is pertinent? Is that fair?

I'm avoiding giving specific answers. I mentioned an easy one earlier, clothing, and [MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION] immediately jumped to the assumption of frilly clothes. Never minding that there are a thousand different ways that dress could be used to denote gender - either by what you wear or what you don't. But, any example I make will immediately be straw manned into ridiculous examples.

Of course, you missed the dirt simple answer to this. We commonly switch between first and third person in referring to our characters. When using third person, use a feminine pronoun. "My character wants information. She walks up to the guard..." Boom. Job of making sure everyone knows the gender is done.

And that's perfectly fair. I'd be pretty happy with that. It gets the job done. Is there anything in what I said that would indicate that this wouldn't be satisfactory? So long as you manage to convey your character's attributes to the table, I don't really give a rat's petoot how you do it.

I never said it was difficult. I just said that it should be done.

 

[Umbran]

Yup. Never really had much truck with it to be honest. If everything about your character only ever happens in your head, then, well, who cares? It's irrelevant to the table and everyone else participating.

If it is irrelevant to you... then it is irrelevant to you. Do you realize that you're kind of coming across like you're telling someone to stop doing a thing that would have no impact on you?

I mentioned an easy one earlier, clothing

I kind of thought that was a weak example. Broadly speaking, we are talking about adventurers. Their most common clothes during most of the time we focus on them in a session is probably armor, or highly utilitarian adventuring clothes (Skirts and dresses? Not action-adventure utilitarian!). And since we all realize that "boobplate" isn't a thing, the clothes the characters are most commonly in are probably not innately gender specific.

I never said it was difficult. I just said that it should be done.

Yeah, well, consider this - you said that the player should give "pertinent" information. If the GM and players are not intending to make gender roles an issue in play, then... it isn't pertinent, is it?

I'm running a game for a friend, his 13-year old daughter, a 13-year old friend who is also a girl, and my wife. Each is playing a character that's the same gender as the player. But, you can sure bet that 1) I am not going to make gender discrimination against them a thing, and 2) I am not running any romance plots, even if the 13-year-olds wanted them - that'd be creepy. I could quite easily run this game with the genders of the characters unspecified. It thus isn't pertinent.

So, from your position of not having actually played in his games, that he *isn't* giving the pertinent information? If not... why get on about it?

 

[Hussar]

If it is irrelevant to you... then it is irrelevant to you. Do you realize that you're kind of coming across like you're telling someone to stop doing a thing that would have no impact on you?

It's irrelevant to the table, not just me. It has no impact on me because it has no impact full stop. If you want to have all this information about your character in your head and never actually bring it to the table, go write fiction. It's certainly not helping in a game that's about shared fiction.

I kind of thought that was a weak example. Broadly speaking, we are talking about adventurers. Their most common clothes during most of the time we focus on them in a session is probably armor, or highly utilitarian adventuring clothes (Skirts and dresses? Not action-adventure utilitarian!). And since we all realize that "boobplate" isn't a thing, the clothes the characters are most commonly in are probably not innately gender specific.

Fair enough. I wasn't really giving much thought to it to be honest. Like I said, simply refering to your character as "she" is good enough.

Ok, just so we're absolutely clear on this.

SO LONG AS THE TABLE IS ABLE TO RECOGNIZE PERTINENT FACTS ABOUT YOUR CHARACTER, YOUR JOB OF PORTRAYING THAT CHARACTER IS DONE.

Like I said, I wasn't going to get into specific examples because everyone want's to start playing silly buggers trap games. And, since all your characters at your table are not gender bending, WHO CARES? You look at the player and you know that the player and the character are the same gender. AGAIN JOB DONE.

My problem is when the only way I could possibly know the gender, race, species, class, alignment, or whatever other character facts you want to name, is to look over your shoulder and read your character sheet, then you have failed to portray your character very well at the table.

 

[billd91]

It's irrelevant to the table, not just me. It has no impact on me because it has no impact full stop. If you want to have all this information about your character in your head and never actually bring it to the table, go write fiction. It's certainly not helping in a game that's about shared fiction.

That's really not your call, is it? Players may have internal narratives as well as external ones. Maybe they'll come out, maybe they won't. And that's OK, Mr. Badwrongfun.

Like I said, I wasn't going to get into specific examples because everyone want's to start playing silly buggers trap games. And, since all your characters at your table are not gender bending, WHO CARES? You look at the player and you know that the player and the character are the same gender. AGAIN JOB DONE.

Well, that's a big assumption now, isn't it?

My problem is when the only way I could possibly know the gender, race, species, class, alignment, or whatever other character facts you want to name, is to look over your shoulder and read your character sheet, then you have failed to portray your character very well at the table.

Or... you failed to pay sufficient attention. Or you are making too many assumptions.
But shidaku's bottom line on all of this, and I agree with him, is your posts on this topic read a whole lot like being very judgey about someone else's role playing as well as they way they play. And frankly, you should knock that off.

 

[Eltab]

I'm not comfortable RP'ing another gender myself (no practice IRL), plus I've seen too many cross-characters that are an excuse to act out noxious stereotypes.

But my preferred form of D&D is PG to PG-13 anyway, so there's that.