D&D (2024) Command is the Perfect Encapsulation of Everything I Don't Like About 5.5e

I never seen anyone use this spell at all and only ever heard of it from the memes about people finding ways to use this and Suggestion to break the game and make DM cry. Were those spells ever popular outside of problem players like that to even complain about their nerf?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

In theory, it totally makes sense. Why would you understand Orc?! Why would the orcs understand you?!
Unless you spoke Orcish or an Orc (or more) spolke a language you happen to know.
But short of giving Comp. Languages a reason to exist, I’ve yet to see languages known be used in a fun way - it’s always a hurdle and more of a nuisance than a challenge. It’s always the first thing forgotten on one’s character sheet too. It’s the first thing the DM forgets to start incorporating into the game.
It's a rare session in my game when language doesn't come up at least once; be it from trying to read something in a language nobody can read (unless you're a Mage you're not automatically literate in my game; instead you roll to see if your past education happened to include literacy, and then for which of your spoken languages - and not all languages even have a written form); or from trying to eavesdrop on some foes; or from checking whether two PCs in the party can even speak to each other (most often happens when a not-too-intelligent character only knows one language and it ain't Common because Common can never be someone's "native tongue" or first language).
 

Yeah, and it was great.

You might not literally knock it prone, but you could stir it's core up and discombobulate it or something else that would impose the same penalty as prone, so it left it in the players' hands to get created rather than shutting them down with semantics.

Open flavor helps creativity instead of hurting it.

I'm going to try to reply to the whole slew of comments that piled up while I was asleep, but for now I'm going to stick to just this one since it so perfectly sums up the issue at hand. Great post.

The crux of the issue is that we both want creativity in our D&D games but we're talking about very different kinds of creativity that call for very different kinds of rules.

Let me explain.

Narrative Creativity

You're talking about narrative creativity, the ability to narrate your action in any number of ways. In 4e, various powers inflicted the "prone" condition on critters. "Prone" has various mechanical impact that is set in stone but those mechanical impact can be connected to any flavor you want. For example:
-Knocking someone over.
-Confusing them with chatter.
-Discombobulating them.
-Causing them to become dizzy.
-Hitting them with a whip and making them lose their balance.

Or a hundred other ways of narrating the set mechanical impact. The flavor is infinitely flexible and an enormous amount of creativity can be brought to bear here since it's so wide open.

However the flavor is so infinitely flexible because the flavor doesn't matter. No matter how you're narrating the power that knocks guys "prone" the mechanics are always the same. I've appreciated this kind of flexibility sometimes myself (for example reskinning the Ancestral Guardian Barbarian as a swashbuckler with "Ancestral Protectors" being annoying chatter and insults instead of anything supernatural).

By doing things like removing the requirement that the target speak your language, 5.5e Command does a better job of catering to Narrative Creativity than 5e command.

Tactical Creativity

Unlike narrative creativity where the mechanics are set in stone by the flavor is infinitely flexible, with narrative creativity the flavor is set in stone but the mechanics are somewhat flexible.

How this works is the text describes specifically how the spell/ability works in flavor terms and mechanics for the default way to use that ability. But then it lets players/DMs extrapolate off of that flavor about how that spell works to MacGyver it or to provide sanity testing to allow the DM to make rulings when the mechanics directly contradict the flavor (i.e. "no you can't trip a gelatinous cube").

For example, if the PCs know they're going up against a cleric who loooooooooooooves casting Command they can prepare for that in various ways:
-Hire mercenaries who don't speak the cleric's language.
-Make a HUGE amount of noise so that nobody can hear what the cleric is saying.
-Stuff their ears full of wax so that they can't hear the cleric's Command like Odysseus' crew with the sirens.
-Get so drunk that they don't understand what the cleric is saying (this would be a very stupid solution that I wouldn't let work as a DM, but I've seen a lot of harebrained PC plans in my time...).

All of these cunning plans to avoid the power of the cleric's Command rely on the flavor of command being set in stone and NOT having any narrative creativity allowed. They also rely on there being some flexibility with the mechanics of Command so that the flavor ("dude is telling you a single word and once you hear it you have to do it") actually mean something at the table.

Under 5e rules I think "you're immune to Command because your ears are so full of wax that you can't hear naughty word" is a fair ruling since the spell only works if people can understand what the caster is saying. While I don't think that sort of thing really works with the 5.5e version of the spell.

By doing things like removing the requirement that the target speak your language and removing the freedom to choose your own verbs, 5.5e Command takes a big steaming dump on the ability to apply Tactical Creativity to command.

Compromise?

Neither of our approaches are better or worse, but they are different.

In a lot of ways 5e was a compromise between these two approaches. It didn't really give me what I wanted, it didn't really give you what you wanted, but we were both (presumably?) fine playing it as enough of a compromise.

For me 5.5e tears up that compromise with things like the change to how Command works. It's not that 5.5e changes all that much, but it changes enough to make it worse for me than 5e and shows that the WotC people are not interested in catering to the kind of creativity I like in D&D in the future.

At the same time that 5.5e brings back 4e's approach to fluff vs. crunch (building a big wall between them made out of tigers with tigers on top), it doesn't bring back the things about 4e that I liked (my poor lost healing surges, how I miss you), so it's not really doing anything for me aside from giving some martial classes much-needed buffs.
 

I never seen anyone use this spell at all and only ever heard of it from the memes about people finding ways to use this and Suggestion to break the game and make DM cry. Were those spells ever popular outside of problem players like that to even complain about their nerf?
Command has been one of the most popular spells on both sides of the screen in every edition I’ve run/played. So mileage definitely varies.
 
Last edited:

That's totally ok IMO.

Spells should be fun, not little mechanical packages. I'm ok with mechanical packages, but being able to interpret spells to change the output of them is something that I think is core to roleplaying "magic" in any kind of context. It requires a human to moderate this output so it doesn't ruin the experience of the game, but that's why we play TTRPG over boardgames. There is a GM who I trust to make a good decision, and who I'm willing to go with their arbitration. That inherent trust is core to the experience as well, and I feel like designing around that trust makes for a more stifled game.
Nope.

Totally disagree here. Spells absolutely should be little mechanical packages that do a fixed list of specific things, not open ended power grabs for people to futz about trying to get as much bang for the buck as they can every single time they can. Spells should work identically to weapon attacks. They do a fixed list of effects, these effects are 100% codified, and move on.

The only reason to "roleplay" magic is to power game and make life a PITA for the DM.

I play TTRPG's for actual roleplay - playing your character and developing the personality and story within the framework of the adventure. "Defecate" is not roleplaying. "Masturbate" is not roleplaying. "Repent" is not roleplaying. It's a jerk player deliberately going out of their way to screw with the game because they can.
 

I play TTRPG's for actual roleplay - playing your character and developing the personality and story within the framework of the adventure. "Defecate" is not roleplaying. "Masturbate" is not roleplaying. "Repent" is not roleplaying. It's a jerk player deliberately going out of their way to screw with the game because they can.
How so? Yes you can have some immature commands but if played off well it can be fun and in a lighthearted game, totally in character. The best reaction I had was the DM told me the cultist I was fighting suddenly passed horrendous gas, had that awful look of someone who just crapped their pants, and then angrily tried to take a swipe at me at a minus to the roll…for a single attack. Hardly an earth-shattering effect, and everyone laughed.

No one is expecting an outsized effect from Command nor should it be used that way. It can create some awesome roleplay moments that take the story within the game in crazy directions if the DM wants, but it’s by no means a given.
 

How so? Yes you can have some immature commands but if played off well it can be fun and in a lighthearted game, totally in character. The best reaction I had was the DM told me the cultist I was fighting suddenly passed horrendous gas, had that awful look of someone who just crapped their pants, and then angrily tried to take a swipe at me at a minus to the roll…for a single attack. Hardly an earth-shattering effect, and everyone laughed.

No one is expecting an outsized effect from Command nor should it be used that way. It can create some awesome roleplay moments that take the story within the game in crazy directions if the DM wants, but it’s by no means a given.
Yeah. No thanks. I'm not 12 years old anymore. Something like this would be far more mood breaking and annoying than it would add to the game. He crapped his pants is not an "awesome" roleplay moment for me. It's a cheap laugh and totally breaking in immersion.

Like I said, it's not role playing to me. That's just a player not actually playing in character. The priest of war decides to drop a cheap poop joke, Rick and Morty style, in the middle of combat? Yeah, no thanks.
 

Nope.

Totally disagree here. Spells absolutely should be little mechanical packages that do a fixed list of specific things, not open ended power grabs for people to futz about trying to get as much bang for the buck as they can every single time they can. Spells should work identically to weapon attacks. They do a fixed list of effects, these effects are 100% codified, and move on.

The only reason to "roleplay" magic is to power game and make life a PITA for the DM.

I play TTRPG's for actual roleplay - playing your character and developing the personality and story within the framework of the adventure. "Defecate" is not roleplaying. "Masturbate" is not roleplaying. "Repent" is not roleplaying. It's a jerk player deliberately going out of their way to screw with the game because they can.

Yup, you totally disagree with me and that's fine. You're pretty hard on one end of the spectrum and I'm pretty hard on the other end.

For me I don't want the mechanics to be 100% codified, I want the flavor to be 100% codified. Why?

Well, if the flavor isn't totally codified then when the players start to interact with the spell/effect in a creative way then I have to either:
A. Just shut them down.

or

B. Do a complete ass-pull.

I don't like either solution. You like solution A. and you shut down players who want to do things like use "repent" when they cast Command because you view it as screwing with the game.

Just for me, when players do stuff like that I'm OVERJOYED. Players trying to derail entire encounters with harebrained cunning plans it my absolute favorite part of DMing. That's why I like my flavor strictly codified but my mechanics a bit loose so that when they try crazy harebrained plans I can use that flavor to figure out if their bizarre off-brand uses of their spells/abilities apply to this situation and I like mechanics that are flexible enough for me to let the players apply them in unusual ways not just tell the players to stop screwing around and stop coming up with cunning plans.

My biggest single inspiration for D&D is The Black Company and those books are FULL of "open ended power grabs for people to futz about trying to get as much bang for the buck as they can every single time they can." One of my favorite scenes in those books involve the heroes springing a sneak attack one someone...with a point blank ballista. I just love that kind of stuff as a DM.

For me as a DM, RPing is important but it isn't as important as creative problem solving (what I called Tactical Creativity upthread). But I find that with the way I DM by treating flavor as strictly codified and not at all flexible while being totally open and encouraging "open ended power grabs for people to futz about trying to get as much bang for the buck as they can every single time they can" it can really encourage more RP as the players feel that the flavor REALLY MATTERS and isn't just color, the flavor descriptions can mean the difference between life and death for their PCs so they have to really pay attention to all of the flavor details and immerse themselves into the world more.

Works for me, would be bored to tears playing D&D any other way, doesn't work for you I guess.

But 5e was enough of a compromise that I could make it work even if it wasn't ideal. 5.5e looks like it won't be. That means that 5.5e is going to be shedding a bunch of people on my end when it would be smarter to keep it as a compromise. Hell, I'd love it personally if WotC fully embraced D&D my way, but it wouldn't be a smart business move to alienate people on your side either.
 
Last edited:

Just for me, when players do stuff like that I'm OVERJOYED. Players trying to derail entire encounters with harebrained cunning plans it my absolute favorite part of DMing.
Now, here? Here we totally agree. I love this sort of thing. Cunning plans (harebrained or not)? Fantastic. Just watched my players do that in my current Phandelver game where a brilliant use of strategy and tactics turned a very highly lethal encounter into a fantastic back and forth fight with lots of tension. It was great.

And did not require anyone to play silly buggers with the rules. See, to me, that's the problem. It's not "creative" at all to abuse the wording of spells. It's totally immersion breaking. The player isn't engaging with the scenario or the encounter. The player is simply abusing loosely written rules. It's got nothing to do whatsoever with roleplay. And it certainly has nothing to do with tactical creativity to abuse the writing of game rules in order to gain more power.

Tactical creativity is done in the game world. Role play is done in the game world. If the player is not engaging with the game world - and "creatively interpreting" spells is not engaging with the game world - then there's no actual role playing going on.
 

Combat and Tactics added a whole new combat system and reworked the weapon proficiencies system entirely. I would argue that using some of those optional systems felt very much like "2.5"
Maybe, especially because they were largely better than the previous approach, but there's a clear difference between feeling like they're making major changes but actually being optional layers, and being a new edition - otherwise there's like, 3E, 3.5E and er, 3.9E or something with the late 3E stuff like The Book of Nine Swords.
 

Remove ads

Top