Community created 5e clone?

[mellored]

I guess I kind of want the FF tactics job tree.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I mean... you could do something like.

Paladin: prerequisite, knight (warrior) and holy (magic).

Or perhaps just don't have class names.

Yeah class names optional for sure.

Good idea. Not all branches need to be 20 levels. Or even full "classes".

I.e. the intimidation branch has only 3 levels for instance.

Absolutely. Some could just be what 5e calls a feat, ie just the 1 level.

Depends on what you mean by a concept I guess.

Do you need to have heavy armor, smite, holy magic, and an aura at level 1 to call yourself a paladin?

Not all that, just a holy knight with both magic and martial power.

Or can you just start with armor, call yourself a warrior of light, and pick up the rest as you go along?

The “call yourself a warrior of light” part is what I don’t like. That “of light” needs to have mechanical representation of some kind, or it’s not actually there, IMO.

Also, kind of a hack, but having a level 0 or level -1 can let "level 1" be 3 choices.

Yeah kinda like treating level 3 as level 1 in 5e.

Hmmm..

I'm thinking as long as you meet the prerequisite, you can take a level in any branch.

I.e. if you have magic 1 -> holy 1. You can just take arcane 1. No need to take magic again.


Possibly something like...

Magic - increases spell slots, gain a cantrip.
Holy - learn a higher level holy spell
Arcane - learn a higher level arcane spell
Nature - learn a higher level nature spell.

"Multiclass" would just be taking a few levels of each of those, rather than focusing on one.

Yeah that would be my goal as well.

So if you have 1 Arcane, and take the Warden archetype or feat or whatever, you have 2 Arcane/Primal, and 1 Martial, because the Warden adds 1/1 Martial/Primal.

That make sense?

....
And here i go rewriting the original idea into something completely different again.

Lol oh no! I actually love that part of design.

 

[mellored]

Some could just be what 5e calls a feat...
Because Warden adds 1/1 Martial/Primal.

Hmm... speaking of feats. Level 1 feats are weaker than level 4 feats, and there are half feats...

So I guess there's no reason all "levels" need to be equal.

"your mastery of the ki flowing through you makes you immune to disease and poison." Is not the power as multi-attack.

Could be a point based tree then. Each node having a different cost, and branches of different lengths.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Hmm... speaking of feats. Level 1 feats are weaker than level 4 feats, and there are half feats...

So I guess there's no reason all "levels" need to be equal.

"your mastery of the ki flowing through you makes you immune to disease and poison." Is not the power as multi-attack.

Could be a point based tree then. Each node having a different cost, and branches of different lengths.

That goes down a road that is too granular and fiddly for me, but I will gladly help with individual parts if you decide to go down that road.

Edit to clarify: points based design with differently costed nodes on complex trees of features is the road I don’t like.

Not all levels being equal, I’m all for. I just prefer to make that clearer by calling them different things, even if it’s just “greater, lesser,etc”.

I’d be more open to it if there is a more “on rails” setup for the core aspects of the class. Eg, if you get your level 1 package, and then those features scale with levels, so any warrior gets a feature that gives a fighting style, and then an extra attack at 5, 11, and 15. Experts get Expertise at level 1, and you get more expertise skills at 5 11, and 15. Or if you go with skill points or ranks it could be more often.

Casters get spell slot and spell level progression, obviously.

It also wouldn’t hurt for the full classes to have iconic paragon/prestige/mastery features at higher levels. Just so that not every level is a level where you need to read all the feats in the game (or even the warrior class branch) again.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Essentially, if it’s to be talent trees, I vote for making full classes into scaffolding that everything else builds onto, rather than it just being talent trees all the way after level 1.

 

[mellored]

That goes down a road that is too granular and fiddly for me,

Fair.

full classes into scaffolding that everything else builds onto

How about...

Have 3 core trunks of 20 levels, being the simple, newbie friendly options.

I.e.
warrior 20 is the champion.
Magic 20 just has spells slots*
And skill 20 is an expert in all skills.

*probably need a general magic spell list.

Then all the branches can build off those.
I.e. Archer is 4 levels (prerequisite: warrior 1).
Arcane is 7 levels (prerequisite: magic 1)
Arcane archer (prerequisite: arcane 2, archer 2).

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Fair.

How about...

Have 3 core trunks of 20 levels, being the simple, newbie friendly options.

I.e. warrior 20 is the champion.

The all the branches are shorter and more focused. I.e. battle master is 4 levels (prerequisite: warrior 2).

Something like that, yeah. So basically I should imagine a fighter core chassis that has way more blank levels that just read “pick a feat, loser”, and like, fighting style and action surge at level 1, archetype feats at level 2, and at 5,7,11,14, and 20 (or whatever) you’d get stuff like an extra fighting style, better crit range, extra use of action surge, and your scaling attack progression, then all other levels are feat levels?

How about having lesser and greater feats, so like Archetype Feats are only available at certain levels, because they give you more, as they scale by level, whereas normal feats do a sharpshooter or whatever?

 

[MoonSong]

Fair.

How about...

Have 3 core trunks of 20 levels, being the simple, newbie friendly options.

I.e. warrior 20 is the champion.

The all the branches are shorter and more focused. I.e. battle master is 4 levels (prerequisite: warrior 2).

Depends, is the basic spellcaster a sorcerer? With wizard and warlock as paths?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Also @mellored what you think of the idea of scaling certain pillar abilities like Spellcasting and attack progression in similar terms, so they can be balanced roughly against eachother, and make mixing them easier?

 

[mellored]

How about having lesser and greater feats, so like Archetype Feats are only available at certain levels, because they give you more, as they scale by level, whereas normal feats do a sharpshooter or whatever?

Sharpshooter seems like it should be under the archer branch. Greater and lesser feats can be that way too.

I.e.
Archer (prerequisite: warrior 1)
1: +2 with ranged attacks
2: Sharpshooter
3: crossbow expert.

So I'm not sure there needs to be "feats" really. Just 1 level long branches (nub?)

But having a level prerequisite isn't a bad idea.

I.e.
Wild shape 1: prerequisite nature magic.
-cr 1/4 or lower.
Wild shape 2: prerequisite level 4
-cr 1 or lower, can swim.
Wild shape 3: prerequisite level 8
-cr 2 or lower, can fly.