D&D 5E Companion thread to 5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part XIV: Wizard)

[CleverNickName]

Hot take: all PHB wizards are "generalist wizards" if you want them to be.

The thing is, a wizard is defined by the spells they cast (and maybe the feats they chose). And there's nothing keeping any subclass from choosing any spell and feat that their heart desires. They get once or two cool powers for their choice of subclass, sure, but this thread is packed with comments about how these powers are actually quite weak and subtle, not "powery" enough. It's a nice cookie in the lunchbox, but not the whole meal. It's a fun hobby, but not their career. Etc.

A Necromancer can choose fireball and invisibility if they wish, and nobody is going to twist their arm and make them animate the dead in every battle..it's just one option that they can choose, a little bit of flair. Generally speaking (see what I did there?), all Wizards have the same magic, and magic makes the mage.

 

[Undrave]

Hot take: all PHB wizards are "generalist wizards" if you want them to be.

The thing is, a wizard is defined by the spells they cast (and maybe the feats they chose). And there's nothing keeping any subclass from choosing any spell and feat that their heart desires. They get once or two cool powers for their choice of subclass, sure, but this thread is packed with comments about how these powers are actually quite weak and subtle, not "powery" enough. It's a nice cookie in the lunchbox, but not the whole meal. It's a fun hobby, but not their career. Etc.

A Necromancer can choose fireball and invisibility if they wish, and nobody is going to twist their arm and make them animate the dead in every battle..it's just one option that they can choose, a little bit of flair. Generally speaking (see what I did there?), all Wizards have the same magic, and magic makes the mage.

Is the Wizard a class or a pile of spells?

 

[Corinnguard]

They're Bookwyrms.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

The Stone is the ONLY good thing about the Transmuter, but the rest is crap.

Minor alchemy should be a cantrip rather than a level 2 ability,
shapechange at level 10 means you can cast polymorph but only on yourself to become a dumber animal, and the capstone Mastery ability requires you to bust your precious Stone to cast a free greater restoration or raise dead - you then spend 8 hours to make a new one: Fun!

The polymorph isn't absolutely super-fantastic, but it's still a free (limited) flight, water breathing, or burrow once per short rest. The capstone is a (semi-)free Raise Dead, full heal, and/or one of the few ways to restore lost youth potentially once per day. Or maybe more realistically once every other day.

IMO, I find it a bit much to essentially create a subclass around a single spell (i.e., Animate Dead). I would probably change Animate Dead, Create Undead, and similar summoning spells so there isn't so much book-keeping required. I suspect that there would be a mutiny if Animate Dead and Create Undead were removed from the game because "TRADITION!" but I'm not sure if D&D's Necromancer is really sustainable with the changing times.

Worlds Without Number, IMHO, created a really good Necromancer mage, so I would look at that as a potential model.

Undead Thralls works just fine with spells like Summon Undead and/or Create Undead (although to be fair, this latter is mostly pretty crappy). Just doesn't provide the extra minion.

Minions really don't end up being too terrible to manage with a bit of experience. You have one "character sheet" for individual minions in a given horde, a piece of paper with individual life totals, and roll a number of dice at once equal to the number of minions each time you have them attack. The spells mostly don't allow individual, granular control. If the DM lets a necromancer micromanage positioning or make separate, sequential attack rolls for each minion then, yes, of course things are going to be a headache and take forever. But they don't have to and shouldn't do this.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Is the Wizard a class or a pile of spells?

A pile of spells that prevents classes from happening.

 

[CleverNickName]

I'm not sure I follow. What do you mean by "prevents classes from happening"?

 

[Corinnguard]

I'm not sure I follow. What do you mean by "prevents classes from happening"?

Maybe he thinks the player pays more attention to what spells they think their wizard character ought to have, and less attention on the wizard's' class features? The 5e Wizard doesn't have much going for it outside of the subclasses or the spells it can pick up.

 

[Undrave]

I'm not sure I follow. What do you mean by "prevents classes from happening"?

The Wizard's vast array of spells makes it hard to carve out a niche for other classes. It's why I keep saying all the mind stuff should be taken out. Why would you need a Psion class when the Wizard can already do all the telepathy/telekinesis stuff ON TOP of Fireballs and Wall of Force etc?

 

[CleverNickName]

Maybe he thinks the player pays more attention to what spells they think their wizard character ought to have, and less attention on the wizard's' class features? The 5e Wizard doesn't have much going for it outside of the subclasses or the spells it can pick up.

I think I'm confused because Spellcasting is a class feature. It's the class feature for Wizards, with Arcane Recovery in second place. If you're paying attention to the wizard's spells, you are paying attention to the most important class feature of the wizard.

The Wizard's vast array of spells makes it hard to carve out a niche for other classes. It's why I keep saying all the mind stuff should be taken out. Why would you need a Psion class when the Wizard can already do all the telepathy/telekinesis stuff ON TOP of Fireballs and Wall of Force etc?

I think this would be really easy to do with a custom spell list: just delete out the spells you don't like, add in the ones you do, and you're off to the races. Going off of my "the spells make the mage" comment above: instead of having a single spell list that is shared by all Wizards, you could even make a list for each "schoool" Subclass to fit your campaign ("In this campaign, Abjurers choose their spells off of the Abjurer list," for example.)

 

[Corinnguard]

I think I'm confused because Spellcasting is a class feature. It's the class feature for Wizards, with Arcane Recovery in second place. If you're paying attention to the wizard's spells, you are paying attention to the most important class feature of the wizard.

I think this would be really easy to do with a custom spell list: just delete out the spells you don't like, add in the ones you do, and you're off to the races. Instead of having a single spell list that is shared by all Wizards, you could even make a list for each "schoool" Subclass to fit your campaign ("In this campaign, Abjurers choose their spells off of the Abjurer list," for example.)

True, for the Wizard class, spellcasting is most certainly a class feature. But the class could use a little more crunch. For comparison, the A5e Wizard. Wizard | Level Up